Divorce with Grace: Co-Parenting, Boundaries, and Empowerment

Lesa Koski: 00:00:00

Welcome listeners.

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I'm thrilled to have you here today

where I get to meet a new friend.

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Rachel King.

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She is an attorney.

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She is the host of gavels down voices

up a great podcast that I listened to a

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little bit today and I really enjoyed it.

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So listeners go there.

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If you want to hear more from Rachel,

but what we're going to talk about today

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on doing divorce different is how to

deal with controlling personalities.

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You know, usually when we're going through

a divorce, we have those issues, but I

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Always like to focus on the children.

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So we're going to talk about the do's

and don'ts of divorce with children.

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And then thirdly, we're going to

talk about co parenting in a way

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that honors your children's feelings.

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But before we do that, I always like

to get to know my guests better.

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And I want you to hear, Rachel,

can you please share what led you

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to do the work that you're doing?

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You're also like a CBS

legal correspondent.

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We've got a thriving business.

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I mean, it's pretty exciting stuff.

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So why, if you could share your

story, we'd love to hear it.

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Rachel King: Sure.

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So as we sit here today,

I own multiple companies.

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I invest in real estate and own

a real estate holding company.

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I'm also an attorney,

which is my primary career.

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And I own a law firm, but if we go way

back in time, uh, we'll say teen years.

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I Really knew that I wanted

to make a lot of money, right?

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That's what all teenagers want is to make

a lot of money and have a lot of power.

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I think as a teen, we feel so out

of control that we're drawn to

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this concept of power and then

who doesn't like fame and money.

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And so I was no different

in that as a teenager.

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But I didn't really know how to get there.

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So when I graduated high school, I tried

college because I knew college was going

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to be probably one way to get there.

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Being an attorney was probably my

number one career choice at that time.

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Again, I really liked the, the, what

you see on TV, you know, it's not

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real life, but I liked the suits.

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concept and how much money attorneys made.

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I loved the power that

they seemed to attract.

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So I knew I had to go to college.

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But when I started

college, I didn't like it.

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I was not ready for

college at 18 years old.

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I didn't go to class.

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Every excuse I had not to do

homework or to sit in the classroom.

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I didn't like it.

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took.

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And anybody that's gone to college

knows that that doesn't really work.

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So about six weeks into my first

semester, I bailed on college, at

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which point my parents were kind of

like, well, you're on your own then.

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And I didn't really know what to do.

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But I kind of thought, well, if I

joined the military, and we weren't

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a military family, but I had a lot

of friends that were in the military.

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If I joined the military, My mom might

let me crash on her couch for two weeks

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and I just needed a place to crash Um,

so I did that so I went and I talked to

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all of the branches of the military I was

ultimately joined the army because the

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army at that time Was promising a lot of

education benefits and even though I was

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sort of off track on my ultimate goal

I knew that's where I wanted to end up.

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So I joined the army Sure enough, my

mom let me crash on her couch for two

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weeks until I shipped off to basic

training, and I was in the military.

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About a few years into the military,

I also realized that I'm a pretty

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controlling personality, and that telling,

having, Following orders of other people

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that were not smart or were too hard was

not going to work for me from a career

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choice or from a career standpoint.

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So while I was in the army,

I got my bachelor's degree.

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I used my GI bill to get my law degree.

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And then here we are today, because

I'm now a mom of three, a wife, and,

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uh, I've come quite, quite far over

the, I don't know, the over 20 years

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that I've been doing all of this.

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Lesa Koski: I love that story and

I had no idea and you know, it's

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kind of, it's inspiring because

especially to younger people, you

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know, who are trying to find their way.

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You took a different route

and I appreciate that.

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And I love it.

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I love that you did that.

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I just have to ask you, so you're kind

of a hardcore family law attorney.

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How'd you pick, and I think you do

some estate work as well, or probate.

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Yeah.

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Probate work.

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I do a lot of

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Rachel King: litigation.

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Yeah.

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Lesa Koski: Okay.

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So what led you down the path?

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Have you been through a divorce?

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Rachel King: No.

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So I really think I do well

in the family drama arena.

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I really love other people's drama.

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I will be the first to admit that like

a good drama I'm, I'm all about, but

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I don't like drama in my own life.

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So, um, ultimately I didn't start

in family law that way, but I

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think that's why I've ended.

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Up in family law.

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In fact, I at one point

I completely stopped.

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I was like, I'm never doing this again

Um, but I so I do the family dramas

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family law probate litigation I'm moving

more toward probate litigation and the

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inheritance disputes, but yeah how I ended

up in family law when I I opened my firm.

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I really wanted to form a firm that I

one was a place that I wanted to work.

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And because you know, I'd gone through

the military and done all of this.

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I wanted to have an employment setting

that would work for me at that point.

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I had three children and I

also wanted to have a job.

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Wanted to practice law how I

would want to experience a lawyer.

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I dealt with lawyers in the past

Um, so going out and kind of hanging

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my own shingle That way you kind

of take whatever you can get.

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I think because I was very approachable

my way of practicing law was to be

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comfortable during the day speak in

a Plain language version and just

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be my clients equal rather than

superior And that was very attractive.

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I think to family law clients That

was sort of a newer way of practicing

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back when I started and so my first

clients were family law clients And

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it sort of snowballed from there.

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And then again, like I said, I think I

stayed there And have been successful

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in that because I am a real person.

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I understand the drama

that goes on in life.

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I also am a big believer because of

the things that I've been through that

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we just need to get to the next step

and stop dwelling on where we are.

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If we can always just go to the next

step, we're going to be more successful.

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Overall as humans and in a family

law situation that must happen.

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You must always be moving

On to the next step.

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Otherwise, you're going to get all

consumed in You know the emotions

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and the financial the stride and

everything that goes on in a divorce

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Lesa Koski: Okay.

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That's so interesting because

we're a little bit similar.

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We have some differences, but I

started out in estates and elder

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law, so I was doing some probates

and elder law, and then I decided

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to branch into more mediations.

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It was more my style.

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Now you were saying you were kind

of a controlling person, which we're

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going to get to talking, you know,

how, how we communicate with those

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controlling people in a minute.

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But so we're kind of similar that way.

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So when I got into the mediation

world, all the people that were coming

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to me, Were people needing divorces?

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That was the P and then of course,

the children there just got me.

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It was all I did.

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It's all the work that I've done.

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So it's been fun.

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Um, and I love that we have that

in common, but now I want to talk

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to you a little bit about how you

deal with controlling personalities.

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Rachel King: Which I will say there's

and as a mediator, you know There are

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plenty of people that go through a

divorce process and don't fall into

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the highly contested litigation trap

most of the people that end up going

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through that are involved in either

they are the controlling individual

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or they are in a relationship with a

controlling individual and When you're

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in a relationship with somebody that has

a very controlling personality Or even

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you know, maybe Has some abuse tendencies

or, uh, narcissistic tendencies.

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When you're in a relationship,

that's kind of the best case

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that it's going to be right.

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And it's difficult to handle them there.

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Now you're going to split up from them.

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It's just going to be horrific.

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I.

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As a litigator because I litigate family

law really go into all of my family law

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cases similar maybe to how you would

do it in mediation and that we need to

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end this because it's not going to do

well, especially the more controlling

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or abusive your other party is.

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So what I tell my clients I

have like a kiss method, right?

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I learned this in the military.

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We used it, but it's an acronym

that I carry through and it's, we're

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going to keep it simple, stupid.

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You can get rid of stupid if you want,

if you don't like that, but we're going

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to only respond when we need to respond.

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I think a lot of people in family law,

uh, or in a co parenting situation

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feel the need to always respond.

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Respond like, I'm going to be attacked.

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If I don't respond, the court's gonna

tell me that I am not participating.

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And that's simply not the case.

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You don't always have to respond.

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So we're gonna keep it really short.

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We're gonna keep it simple.

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We're gonna stay on track and we're

not gonna respond if we don't need to.

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And one of the things that that

does when you're dealing with a

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really controlling person or with.

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Again, uh, narcissistic tendencies is

it sort of takes the wind out of their

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sail over time, not immediately, because

chances are through the marriage,

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they were able to be controlling.

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And so now you're kind of weaning them

off of it, but it will work if you

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just keep it simple, keep it short, and

don't feel the obligation to resist.

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To everything and then set boundaries,

which is incredibly difficult when

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you're going through a divorce

with somebody that's controlling

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But it's okay to set boundaries.

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I'm not gonna do this.

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I'm only gonna communicate

with you Oh at 8 a.

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m I will look at all of my messages or I

will absolutely talk tell you what's going

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on with the kids But outside of talking

about what's going on with the kids.

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I'm not going to be responding to any

other text messages We can go through

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Our attorneys or we can go through

our mediator setting boundaries is

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so important and really learning.

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I think how to communicate

with that person is key because

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you can't control them, right?

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They're overly controlling.

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So since you can't control them

and you can't change them, what

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can you do to adjust how you

communicate through this process?

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So that one, it's healthy and balanced

for you, but you're more likely

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to get the outcome that you want.

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And quite frankly, the outcome that

I strive for in all of my clients

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with this kind of personality type

is to End it because otherwise it's

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a never ending cycle where one person

is always trying to gain the control.

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Lesa Koski: Yep.

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I love that Okay, so the two key points

I got out of there just to wrap up

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the how to have this conversation with

the controlling person Keep it simple

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You don't always have to respond and

set your boundaries and I love that

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one because it's not a day set a time

Don't talk about What's going on with

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the kids when you're talking about

your divorce, you know what I mean?

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Separate it out so that

it doesn't get mixed up.

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I love that so much.

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That's so helpful So now okay, so

we've kind of got the the do's and

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don'ts Now I want to go to the do's

and don'ts of divorce with children.

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Rachel King: Oh, I mean, this could go

on for days, but I think the biggest

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ones that I, I mean, there, there's

communication when you're dealing,

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but I think we'll get to that one

when you have children and you're

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going through the divorce, regardless

of what kind of, Maybe you have a

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controlling person on the other side.

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Maybe you are the controlling person, but

you still have a whole lot of emotion.

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And the bottom line is that

you are losing something.

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Even if you hate your spouse, you are

losing your dream because you thought

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that your marriage and your family was

going to end up one way and it's not.

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So understanding that you are

going to go through all of the

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emotions, the roller coasters,

and you're going to have feelings.

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Someday they're going

to be, I hate my spouse.

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Someday they're going

to be, I love my spouse.

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I should get back together.

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But all of those are unique to you

and they're not that of your children.

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And I think whether you have the best.

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other parent or the worst other parent.

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It's really important as you go

through this to figure out how

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to let your kids form their own

independent opinion of their other

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parent outside of your opinion.

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All of the things that you're

feeling are totally valid.

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But your kids don't necessarily feel them,

but they do feed off of your emotions.

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So if you can learn how to sort of

separate that out, and I say this

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almost especially to the people

that have another parent that's

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abusive or controlling or awful.

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It's not your job.

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To have your, to teach your children what

kind of person their other parent is.

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It's your job to let them

form their own opinion.

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And so learning how to keep your emotions

outside and separate from your children

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and having your children have their own

feelings in this toward you and to other

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parents, I think, are absolutely crucial.

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And you'll probably need

a therapist for that.

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Attorneys, we're not good at it.

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I

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Lesa Koski: know, you know, and

it's interesting because as you're

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talking about that, I'm thinking

when I work with people, we're kind

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of working together and I say, Hey,

don't talk bad about the other person.

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That's not going to help your kids.

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And no, it's not.

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They don't want to feel bad

about the other parents.

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But when there's a situation

where there's abuse, that's a

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little bit of a slippery slope.

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I don't, you know, that's where you

get those therapists in because.

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You know, I mean, yeah, you can let them

set their own opinion, but you're going

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to have to give them tools and there's

a lot more involved in those situations.

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Yeah.

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So you're, you work with things

that are different than mine.

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Mine are usually people

who want to work together.

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And I have to say too, I wanted to go kind

of circle back to what we were talking

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about at the beginning when I have a

couple and I'm Watching them during the

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consultation or one of them reaches out.

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I always ask about this to

each of them separately.

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If there's any kind of verbal abuse or

any reason that they would feel, um,

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controlled, I don't do the mediation.

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Now I will do the mediation

if they have attorneys.

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To represent them, but it could

just blow up in a bad way.

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And I had one instance recently

that I, I kind of felt bad about

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because I didn't, I didn't see, uh,

anything and she didn't realize what

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was going on in her relationship.

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Until the divorce was over and she

went, Ooh, so we're learning from it.

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She's been a sweetheart.

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She's sending me all these resources

on, on how to know if someone's abusive.

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So that's a tricky part

that you don't know.

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But I would say in general, if you

feel like the, it's not an even field

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or you feel like you're controlled

or abused, hire an attorney.

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Don't try to do it

yourself with a mediator.

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I don't know if you agree or not, but

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Rachel King: I well I think I tell

people this this is the three things I

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say when you're going through a divorce

You need to have a therapist even if

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you don't believe in therapy and even

if you're getting along long amicably

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because you need the tools to know how

you're taking this romantic relationship

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to more of a business relationship

And it's especially important if you

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have children now, you're learning

how to co parent instead of Co parent

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separately instead of co parent together.

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You need to have some kind of attorney,

whether you are going through an

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amicable divorce where you're going

to use mediation tools or you're

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going through a more self represented

situation or a very litigious situation.

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You need to talk to an

attorney to know you're right.

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Because I don't know how you can

walk into mediation, or you can

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walk into the court and advocate

for yourself if you don't even know

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the baseline for what the law says.

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You don't want to be arguing over the

silverware that you have no right to

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because it was inheritance to your spouse.

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Understand the laws.

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I once had a really cute dog.

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Woman, she was so darling.

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She was 21 years old.

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She got married at 19 years old And

they had one baby and they so they'd

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only been married for two years and

she came in She said I want spousal

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support for the rest of my life.

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And I said, um, Well, you're not gonna

get spousal support for the rest of

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your life And she said yes when we

got married and had a baby He promised

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me that I would never have to work

and I said well that is So nice.

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But you were married for

two years, you're 21.

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You have your entire life, literally

your entire life of career left,

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so you're not gonna get it.

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And it took her a little while

to come to terms with that.

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But can you imagine if she

even went into a mediation or

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self-represented and started.

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Making those kind of arguments

without understanding the law, it

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would be a huge waste of time and

she'd be emotionally devastated.

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So you need a therapist, you need to

talk to an attorney so you know your

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rights, and then you need to have a

support system so that when you can't

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stand what your attorney says and

it all went badly in court, and you

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can't stand your significant other,

you're not complaining about it in

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front of the kids, you're going and

complaining about it to your girlfriends.

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Lesa Koski: Working

with that talk therapy.

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I love that.

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Um, okay.

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So now I'm looking at the time.

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I cannot believe how fast this is

going, but I want to, I still want to

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ask you about co parenting in a way

that honors your children's feelings.

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Tell me more about that.

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Rachel King: So I'm a child of divorce

and then I also do Divorce and this is

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probably a very controversial position.

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And in fact, I know it is and I think You

one like I was saying you need to allow

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your children the freedom to have whatever

kind of relationship They want with both

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you and other parents Even if you don't

like the other parent they need to feel

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free to have that at the same time They're

going to have an opinion and a voice.

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They're going to say, I don't want to

go to Dad's or I want to, Mom, I, I

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want to stay, um, at Dad's tonight.

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I always speak from the feminine

point of view because I am a mom.

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They're going to have

something to say about it.

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And as a parent, I think you

need to allow all of that.

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You need to allow them the freedom to

have the relationship that they want.

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You need to allow them a space.

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Space where they can voice their

opinion and they can say what

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they want and they don't want.

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But here's the thing, I don't

think children should have a say.

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I don't think for the most

part, it's appropriate to let

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them be the deciding factor.

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And that's really different than

not considering their position.

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Right?

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Of course, as a mom, I wanna

hear my children's position.

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Oh, you can't stand dad today.

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You can't, didn't like what he did.

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I, I mean, I'm married to my

kid's dad and they still come to

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me and complain about him, right?

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Mm-Hmm.

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: 00:19:30

. validating what they are saying, but not

making it their decision, their final

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say as to whether they're going to go

to visitation or they're going to spend

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that time with the other parent, really

keeping the children out of the decision.

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: 00:19:46

Decision role while still validating

their feelings and their voice, I

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think is imperative to co-parenting

with another, uh, somebody

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else, especially post-divorce.

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: 00:20:00

And then learning tools like

if you have a controlling act.

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Are you going to parallel parent?

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That's a form of co parenting.

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So how are you going to manage co

parenting to allow your child to

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have both parents as involved as they

want to, again, assuming it's safe

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and all of the things, but allowing

that to happen while reducing the

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amount of stress on your children.

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: 00:20:23

And as a parent, we do it all the

time when we're happily married

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or even unhappily married, right?

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So it shouldn't be shocking that you're

expected to do the same thing When you're

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: 00:20:35

not married, but for some reason it's a

little tricky in our heads to wrap our

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: 00:20:40

head around it Um, so navigating that

with for your kids I think is going to

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: 00:20:44

be the best way to allow them to have

the most positive outcome And again,

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I speak this as a child that lived it

and as an attorney that litigates it

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Lesa Koski: well, you know and I

have to say I find it interesting

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that you think that's controversial

because I totally agree with you.

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And I'm a specialist in, you

know, co parenting specialist.

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And the reason is, and I, I have this

happen all the time where couple, couples

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will come to me and, and one will say,

well, I talked to them and, uh, they're,

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: 00:21:14

You know, they're like in grade school

and they want to go to school here by me.

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And then the mom here is another, and I'm

like, Oh my gosh, do you know how much

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pressure you're putting on your child?

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: 00:21:24

They just need to know you got them.

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: 00:21:26

Everything's going to be okay.

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: 00:21:28

And yeah, you can listen to their

feelings, but you're the parent and

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they're, they're going to be telling

you what you want to hear as well.

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: 00:21:36

You're not really going to know for

certain because they're telling both

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parents that they want to be there, go

to the school in their neighborhood.

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: 00:21:44

Whatever it is, but I get so frustrated

when parents put that on their children.

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That's a huge thing.

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: 00:21:50

You're the parent, you

together make that decision.

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: 00:21:54

And I think that's the

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: 00:21:54

Rachel King: difference.

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: 00:21:55

If my kid says to me, I want to go

to school by you, by, by you, mom.

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: 00:22:01

My question is why tell me why, if

you can't tell me why, then you're

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: 00:22:05

making the child decision because you

think I want to hear it and all that.

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: 00:22:09

I want to go to school.

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: 00:22:10

at this high school because they've

got the band program that they want.

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: 00:22:14

They have the IB program that they want.

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: 00:22:16

All of my friends are there

and so it really makes sense to

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: 00:22:19

me, mom, to go to that school.

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: 00:22:20

Now as a parent, I don't

have to let them decide.

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: 00:22:23

Okay, you decide where

you want to go to school.

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: 00:22:24

You go tell dad.

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: 00:22:25

Right.

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: 00:22:26

You go tell dad.

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: 00:22:26

That's your battle.

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: 00:22:27

No, it's okay, I'm going to I actually

think that's a really good decision.

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: 00:22:31

I think that's the right

school that you should go to.

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: 00:22:33

So I'm going to take that to dad

and I'm going to tell that, Hey, I

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: 00:22:37

know that you really want them to

go to school by you, but like, this

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: 00:22:40

is the high school that makes sense.

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: 00:22:42

They've got all of these programs

and we together consider what our

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: 00:22:45

child said, but we make the decision.

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: 00:22:48

And I think that's the huge distinction

between when people say, no, I'm

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: 00:22:52

going to, I'm going to let my kids

decide because they need a voice.

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: 00:22:55

No, no.

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: 00:22:56

You want to confirm their divorce,

their voice, but you don't ever

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: 00:22:59

want to make them decide because

it's devastating for a child.

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: 00:23:03

And they say whatever they want in

the moment to please the parent.

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: 00:23:07

Because that's what we do as children.

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: 00:23:10

Lesa Koski: Amen.

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: 00:23:11

I think that's a great place to end

our conversation because that's a huge,

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: 00:23:15

important point that was just made.

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: 00:23:17

And I love that we're ending with

something important about the kids.

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: 00:23:21

So Rachel, you are all over social media.

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: 00:23:25

I'm going to have all your links.

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: 00:23:27

How should people get ahold

of you if they need you?

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: 00:23:29

I know you're, you're in California.

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: 00:23:32

I am.

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: 00:23:33

Tell me more.

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: 00:23:33

Where else are

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: 00:23:34

Rachel King: you?

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: 00:23:35

California.

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: 00:23:35

I'm licensed in California,

Texas, Arizona, and Kentucky.

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: 00:23:38

You can find me on all of the socials.

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: 00:23:40

That's probably the best way,

or you can go to my website, The

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: 00:23:44

Lawyer King, and reach out directly.

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: 00:23:47

But if you send me a message, I'm on

the socials at The Lawyer King also.

431

: 00:23:50

That is a great way to get in touch

with me, and either me or somebody

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: 00:23:54

on our team will get back to you.

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: 00:23:57

Lesa Koski: Perfect.

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: 00:23:58

Perfect.

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: 00:23:58

So listeners, here's another little thing.

436

: 00:24:01

I had so much fun talking to

Rachel on Doing Divorce Different.

437

: 00:24:05

I got real excited to have

her on Saddle Up Live.

438

: 00:24:08

So if you want to hear more, because

this was interesting when we did this

439

: 00:24:12

Doing Divorce Different podcast and

Rachel talked about, um, you know,

440

: 00:24:16

she just seemed like she felt so proud

of her finances and feeling powerful.

441

: 00:24:21

And I globbed onto that because I

don't always, sometimes I feel like

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: 00:24:25

I should, you know, Quiet, be a

little quieter about what, what I

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: 00:24:28

want financially or in my career.

444

: 00:24:31

And I know that Rachel is financially

well off and I know she knows a lot

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: 00:24:37

about finances and being independent

as women, that's what we're going

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: 00:24:42

to talk about on Saddle Up Live.

447

: 00:24:43

So if you want to hear more about

that, please tune in and Rachel,

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: 00:24:47

thank you so much for your time.

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: 00:24:50

Complete pleasure to get to know you.

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: 00:24:52

Thank you.

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: 00:24:53

And can I just pop in one more thing?

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: 00:24:55

Rachel King: Coming out and yes, it's

called getting divorced now What and

453

: 00:25:00

it really is everything that I've

learned as an attorney for over 10

454

: 00:25:04

years and how to apply it in your

own divorce Whether you are Have

455

: 00:25:08

another attorney representing you.

456

: 00:25:10

You're going at it alone.

457

: 00:25:11

You're going through mediation.

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: 00:25:13

It gives kind of breakdowns on exactly

these tips that we were talking about

459

: 00:25:16

today and includes real life stories.

460

: 00:25:19

So pop on over to rachelkingattorney.

461

: 00:25:21

com and enter to win a free copy.

462

: 00:25:24

Lesa Koski: All right.

463

: 00:25:25

Awesome.

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: 00:25:27

Thanks so much for being here, Rachel.

465

: 00:25:29

Thank you.