Empowering Dads in Family Court with David Pisarra

Lesa Koski: 00:00:01

Welcome listeners.

2

: 00:00:03

I'm thrilled to have you here today.

3

: 00:00:05

We're doing something different

on doing divorce different.

4

: 00:00:09

I don't know that I've ever

had an expert, a dad expert on.

5

: 00:00:13

So I've got David Pizarra

and he is an attorney.

6

: 00:00:18

He's the founder of Dad's a law school.

7

: 00:00:20

He's got a podcast.

8

: 00:00:22

He's an author.

9

: 00:00:23

And the reason we're going to,

well, we're going to get to

10

: 00:00:25

know David a little bit more.

11

: 00:00:27

I love to get their authentic

stories and I don't know what it is.

12

: 00:00:30

So I can't wait to hear, but

another reason that David's here.

13

: 00:00:34

I know a lot of my listeners who

listen to doing divorce different.

14

: 00:00:37

Well, a lot of them are women.

15

: 00:00:39

And a lot of them are doing mediations.

16

: 00:00:42

However, it's still really

important to be aware of the laws.

17

: 00:00:47

So if you're going through a mediation,

I still think this information is

18

: 00:00:51

really important for you to know.

19

: 00:00:54

You need to understand.

20

: 00:00:55

You know what dads need to know.

21

: 00:00:57

And if you're a woman, I think this

could be very enlightening as well

22

: 00:01:00

if you're on the other side of this.

23

: 00:01:02

So that's why I'm so

excited to have David here.

24

: 00:01:05

So David, thank you so much for taking

the time to join us and welcome.

25

: 00:01:12

David Pisarra: Thank you, Lisa.

26

: 00:01:12

It's my pleasure being here.

27

: 00:01:13

You know, getting the message out

because there's so many people.

28

: 00:01:16

who are representing themselves

these days, and they don't know what

29

: 00:01:19

they're doing going in the family

court, which is why I started Dath

30

: 00:01:22

Law School, is to help people become

more educated, even about just the

31

: 00:01:27

basics of what's the judge looking for?

32

: 00:01:29

What do they need to know about you?

33

: 00:01:31

So I'm really grateful for this

opportunity to share with you.

34

: 00:01:34

Lesa Koski: All right.

35

: 00:01:35

Do you have any, um, stories like,

did you go through this yourself or

36

: 00:01:39

did you just practice law for years

and see that this was very needed?

37

: 00:01:44

David Pisarra: So I'm a bit of a.

38

: 00:01:46

Whack a doodle story because I'm

a single gay man with no kids.

39

: 00:01:50

You're not gay!

40

: 00:01:51

Okay, so there's a bit of like,

what the hell did that happen?

41

: 00:01:54

Lesa Koski: Yeah!

42

: 00:01:54

David Pisarra: It all

started about 25 years ago.

43

: 00:01:57

My partner and I, who I met

literally second day of law school.

44

: 00:02:00

We became best friends

all through law school.

45

: 00:02:04

We're opening up our office and I'm

like, okay, what do you want to practice?

46

: 00:02:08

And he said, family law.

47

: 00:02:09

And I was like, Oh no, gross.

48

: 00:02:16

And I wanted to go to business law

and corporate law and help people

49

: 00:02:20

like become captains of industry.

50

: 00:02:23

And I would go because I'm the rain maker.

51

: 00:02:26

I'm sort of the marketing

head of the firm.

52

: 00:02:27

And my job would be to go to the chamber

of commerce and the Rotary club and the

53

: 00:02:31

Elks club and talk about what we do.

54

: 00:02:34

And I would say, I'm Dave Fezzaro.

55

: 00:02:36

I want to do family.

56

: 00:02:37

I mean, I want to do.

57

: 00:02:38

Business law, and I can help

you with your corporations.

58

: 00:02:41

And by the way, my partner does

family law and they would come

59

: 00:02:44

up to me afterwards and they'd be

like, can he lower my child support?

60

: 00:02:47

Can he get me out of this marriage?

61

: 00:02:49

I got to get rid of the divorce.

62

: 00:02:50

Before I knew it, his calendar

was full and his calendar started

63

: 00:02:56

spilling into my calendar.

64

: 00:02:58

And in about six months, all of a sudden

my calendar was full of family law.

65

: 00:03:02

And 24 years later, I'm a divorce lawyer.

66

: 00:03:04

And I'm like, I love

67

: 00:03:07

Lesa Koski: it.

68

: 00:03:08

Well, David, I have, we have

something in common because I

69

: 00:03:12

have been married for 32 years.

70

: 00:03:14

I have never been divorced, but

I know it's not interesting.

71

: 00:03:18

However, I've, you know, it's kind

of that story of my surgeon doesn't

72

: 00:03:24

necessarily have had to have gone

through the surgery that I need.

73

: 00:03:29

And, you know, I've been through

really hard times, really hard times.

74

: 00:03:34

And so I know how to deal with hard.

75

: 00:03:37

And that's what it is, right?

76

: 00:03:39

So, so we are similar that way.

77

: 00:03:42

So I'm so glad to know that about you.

78

: 00:03:45

And okay, so now let's talk about what

our dads, what do they need to know

79

: 00:03:51

when they're going to family court?

80

: 00:03:52

What's important?

81

: 00:03:53

David Pisarra: So the first most

important thing is it's not a fair system.

82

: 00:03:58

It's not a system where you're going

to walk in and be like, I'm a great dad

83

: 00:04:01

and walk out with 50 percent custody.

84

: 00:04:04

Not going to happen because what's going

to happen is mom's going to come into

85

: 00:04:07

court And the reality is this, 70 percent

of all couples who split up and they've

86

: 00:04:14

got a kid, they're fighting over the kid,

Never see the inside of the courtroom.

87

: 00:04:19

They may hire a paralegal or they both

have lawyers and negotiate the settlement

88

: 00:04:23

and they get it all done on paper.

89

: 00:04:24

And that's the last time they

ever deal with it because they're

90

: 00:04:28

basically normal, healthy people who

are able to come to an agreement and

91

: 00:04:31

recognize co parenting and equal care.

92

: 00:04:35

Equal share child custody is

in the kid's best interest.

93

: 00:04:39

Let's put the children's

interests above our own.

94

: 00:04:42

If they're not fighting in court,

30% end up in court to some degree.

95

: 00:04:48

There's a little bit of a struggle over

like, how much is the child support?

96

: 00:04:51

And I want more control because

I've got an ego involved.

97

: 00:04:54

And the reality is if you're going

into family court, probably you're

98

: 00:04:59

fighting over custody because

one party has an ego involved.

99

: 00:05:04

And child custody translates

into child support.

100

: 00:05:07

So dads need to recognize you got to

show up different because you can't

101

: 00:05:11

walk in and be like, I'm a great dad.

102

: 00:05:13

She'll tell you.

103

: 00:05:14

I'm like, no, but she was going to tell

him that you wouldn't be in family court.

104

: 00:05:19

If she really thought you're a

great dad, you wouldn't be fighting.

105

: 00:05:22

Like, come on now.

106

: 00:05:23

And so I had to oftentimes get

them to get out of their mindset

107

: 00:05:27

of, This is the woman I love.

108

: 00:05:30

This is the family I protect and move

them into, no, you gotta be a little bit

109

: 00:05:36

more, I need to protect my interests.

110

: 00:05:38

I have to come first because I

need to be there for my kids.

111

: 00:05:42

I have to show up for my kids in a

way that I'm not used to, that I've

112

: 00:05:47

never done before, and no one's ever

told me about, so you got to show

113

: 00:05:51

up in court and you got to be ready.

114

: 00:05:53

To convince the judge

that you're a great dad.

115

: 00:05:58

You can't just walk in and

say, you're a great dad.

116

: 00:06:00

You gotta be able to prove it.

117

: 00:06:02

'cause what we're doing, really what

we're doing here is we're convincing

118

: 00:06:05

the judge, we're selling ourself

to the judge because the judge

119

: 00:06:10

has to know, like, and trust you.

120

: 00:06:13

With children, so they're

naturally like skeptical because

121

: 00:06:17

what are they hearing from mom?

122

: 00:06:19

He's never around.

123

: 00:06:20

He doesn't know what their interests are.

124

: 00:06:22

He doesn't know how to parent.

125

: 00:06:23

He's negligent.

126

: 00:06:24

He's too busy working, he

doesn't work enough something.

127

: 00:06:28

All kinds of just stuff, and that's

all the judge is really hearing.

128

: 00:06:32

Balance that with, I'm a great dad.

129

: 00:06:35

Well, come on, dude, judge.

130

: 00:06:37

Isn't going to buy that.

131

: 00:06:38

So you've got to show up

with more information.

132

: 00:06:40

Lesa Koski: Okay.

133

: 00:06:43

Keep going.

134

: 00:06:43

I'm, I'm listening.

135

: 00:06:45

I'm so excited.

136

: 00:06:45

I'm going to talk about mindset

when you are done with this thought.

137

: 00:06:48

Oh yeah.

138

: 00:06:49

David Pisarra: Mindsets a year.

139

: 00:06:50

We can have a whole show with that alone.

140

: 00:06:53

So the way in which you do that

is dads have to show up with

141

: 00:06:56

what's called a declaration.

142

: 00:06:58

Basically it's a letter to the judge

that says, I'm a great dad and here's

143

: 00:07:03

23 reasons why I'm a great dad.

144

: 00:07:05

And here's the proof that shows that

when I say I'm showing up for my kids,

145

: 00:07:10

here's my daily calendar that shows the

times I've had my kids, what we've done,

146

: 00:07:15

receipts from movies, receipts from water

parks, receipts from karate classes.

147

: 00:07:20

whatever it is you're doing, you're

showing the judge, I'm a great dad,

148

: 00:07:26

you're proving your case, and the

reason why is because judge has all this

149

: 00:07:32

information from mom, and needs to have

the counterbalance information from dad,

150

: 00:07:37

so now the judge can look at you, okay,

well wait a second mom, you said he's

151

: 00:07:40

never there, but he's got a calendar that

shows for the last six months, he's used

152

: 00:07:44

every single vacation day that he has.

153

: 00:07:47

He's used every parenting

plan that he's offered.

154

: 00:07:50

So if he's not showing up

enough, why are you gatekeeping?

155

: 00:07:53

Oh, oh, okay.

156

: 00:07:56

Now the tables are turning.

157

: 00:07:58

Now the judge is going to start

seeing like what's really going on.

158

: 00:08:01

And so it is very much a mindset.

159

: 00:08:03

Dads have to A, go in and sell

themselves to the judge, B, they have

160

: 00:08:08

to know how to prove themselves with

actual evidence, and C, they have

161

: 00:08:12

to know how to use that evidence.

162

: 00:08:13

In court to prove their great dad

and that mom's lying about what?

163

: 00:08:18

He's not a good dad.

164

: 00:08:19

Lesa Koski: Mm hmm

165

: 00:08:20

David Pisarra: Okay,

166

: 00:08:23

Lesa Koski: yeah, so I can't help it the

coach in me when you say mindset I think,

167

: 00:08:29

okay, before he can go in and convince

the judge, he has to believe it, right?

168

: 00:08:36

Because you, you have to believe it.

169

: 00:08:38

You have to believe it

to change your mindset.

170

: 00:08:41

And I think, you know, my heart goes

out to a lot of dads because I work

171

: 00:08:46

with a lot of them and they haven't had

a big part maybe in their kids lives.

172

: 00:08:53

Maybe there's a stay at

home mom, but they want to.

173

: 00:08:56

Right.

174

: 00:08:56

And things are shifting and changing and

maybe they need to have the belief that

175

: 00:09:01

they're learning to become a great dad.

176

: 00:09:04

So preparing before a mediation, before

a court case on how you're going to

177

: 00:09:10

do that, getting your ducks in a row,

starting to work towards that, I think.

178

: 00:09:15

Would be a huge.

179

: 00:09:17

Huge place to start.

180

: 00:09:19

David Pisarra: It is, but, and, but I

wanna, I wanna clarify one thing you said.

181

: 00:09:23

Okay.

182

: 00:09:24

Like, like he's been working and maybe

he hasn't been a part of the kid's life.

183

: 00:09:29

He's probably been a bigger part

of the kid's life than anybody

184

: 00:09:31

wants to acknowledge, you know, if,

if they're still living together

185

: 00:09:36

and dad's coming home from work.

186

: 00:09:39

And then mowing along, or taking

out the trash, or demonstrating

187

: 00:09:43

how to be a good partner.

188

: 00:09:45

He is showing up if he's

there wrestling with the kids.

189

: 00:09:49

And there's not always times that

moms want to acknowledge that.

190

: 00:09:52

Moms don't always want to acknowledge

that playtime when dads and kids

191

: 00:09:55

are just roughhousing on the floor.

192

: 00:09:58

That's really crucial to

a child's development.

193

: 00:10:00

And they don't want to

acknowledge that that has value.

194

: 00:10:04

So they devalue a lot of the

time dad is with the kids

195

: 00:10:08

because there's a reason for it.

196

: 00:10:09

The more time they have, the more

money they get in child support.

197

: 00:10:16

Child custody translates

directly into child support.

198

: 00:10:20

And we say like, Oh no,

those are totally separate.

199

: 00:10:23

Lesa Koski: It's always mixed.

200

: 00:10:25

David Pisarra: That's a bunch of bull.

201

: 00:10:26

Lesa Koski: I know.

202

: 00:10:27

And you know,

203

: 00:10:28

David Pisarra: dependent on the

other and not have them be an issue.

204

: 00:10:32

Lesa Koski: It's always an issue.

205

: 00:10:33

Even if they say, I mean,

206

: 00:10:35

David Pisarra: the dads actually

have an impact on their kids.

207

: 00:10:38

And they have an influence on

their children that gets hidden.

208

: 00:10:42

It's ghost time because

it's not seen as valuable.

209

: 00:10:45

You know, oftentimes women want to say,

well, I was stay at home parent and

210

: 00:10:50

like my emotional labor and I'm cleaning

and I'm doing the laundry and I'm doing

211

: 00:10:54

the cleaning and nobody's valuing that.

212

: 00:10:55

Well, guess what?

213

: 00:10:56

We do value that.

214

: 00:10:58

And we value dad's time

with the kids as well.

215

: 00:11:02

And I

216

: 00:11:02

Lesa Koski: want to right and I want

to reiterate because i'm so glad

217

: 00:11:07

you brought that up I didn't want to

say that they weren't valued because

218

: 00:11:12

the mom was a stay at home mom But I

want them to hear what you just said

219

: 00:11:17

so that they value not to mention

supporting your family financially,

220

: 00:11:23

giving them a life is a huge value.

221

: 00:11:26

Putting your time in is a

huge value to your children.

222

: 00:11:29

So I did not want to say that.

223

: 00:11:31

So I'm so glad that you picked up on that.

224

: 00:11:34

Um, and that is so true.

225

: 00:11:36

And I think it's just important.

226

: 00:11:38

For the men and the women

listening to realize that value.

227

: 00:11:42

I mean, if you are so fortunate to be

able to work together on your divorce

228

: 00:11:48

and your parenting plan, realize

that, that that's an important piece.

229

: 00:11:53

So I'm glad that you said that.

230

: 00:11:55

David Pisarra: And most are luckily,

I mean, we're like, when we, when we

231

: 00:11:58

see the high conflict cases, those

are, someone's got a personality

232

: 00:12:02

disorder, you know, that's when

we're dealing with really, there's

233

: 00:12:05

a borderline, there's a narcissist.

234

: 00:12:07

There's something else going on here.

235

: 00:12:10

In reality,

236

: 00:12:12

Lesa Koski: in reality, I do find that

there are a lot of people who even if

237

: 00:12:17

they really care about their kids have

a very difficult time really truly

238

: 00:12:23

focusing on what is best for the children

because it's so embedded with the,

239

: 00:12:30

the disagreement between the couple.

240

: 00:12:33

And it's just.

241

: 00:12:33

Yeah.

242

: 00:12:34

That's such a, that's a struggle.

243

: 00:12:36

That's a struggle even in, yeah, yeah.

244

: 00:12:40

David Pisarra: Okay.

245

: 00:12:40

Because it gets wrapped up in all of

those feelings of you're abandoning me.

246

: 00:12:45

I'm not good enough.

247

: 00:12:47

How come you're abandoning me?

248

: 00:12:48

Why am I not loved enough?

249

: 00:12:49

Why are you not doing the way things?

250

: 00:12:51

Things the way I want them to be done,

and there's control issues and, and it

251

: 00:12:55

all boils over and it spills into all

these other areas and, and it's hard

252

: 00:12:59

for people to bring it back down and

recognize like, Hey, we are separate.

253

: 00:13:04

We need to focus on this issue.

254

: 00:13:06

And that's what the judge is there for.

255

: 00:13:08

The judge is supposed to kind of

be the oil and the water and like

256

: 00:13:11

bring things down to like, then

come up with a real good decision.

257

: 00:13:15

Lesa Koski: Right.

258

: 00:13:15

Which

259

: 00:13:15

David Pisarra: is why the

judge needs more information.

260

: 00:13:17

I was at a dinner a couple weeks back

talking to judges and I said, what's

261

: 00:13:20

the one thing you want dads to know?

262

: 00:13:22

And they're like, they've got

to give us more information.

263

: 00:13:25

We just don't know enough about them.

264

: 00:13:27

Lesa Koski: Yeah.

265

: 00:13:27

Yeah.

266

: 00:13:28

David Pisarra: And that's why Dad's Law

School was created, was to teach dads

267

: 00:13:31

how to give the judge what they need.

268

: 00:13:33

So you can get what you want

and what the children need.

269

: 00:13:37

Lesa Koski: And that's what's important.

270

: 00:13:38

Okay.

271

: 00:13:38

So my next question was going to be

if you could like put this into three

272

: 00:13:43

top mistakes that dads make, but

I'm kind of getting a guess on what

273

: 00:13:48

those answers might be, but go ahead.

274

: 00:13:50

If I were to ask you that, what

are some mistakes that dads make?

275

: 00:13:54

David Pisarra: So the first

one is they're not prepared.

276

: 00:13:57

They don't know what they don't know.

277

: 00:13:59

They haven't really looked at it.

278

: 00:14:00

They don't know what to value.

279

: 00:14:02

They don't have what to put in their

paperwork to show to the judge.

280

: 00:14:05

The second one is they think their

first impression is when they walk

281

: 00:14:09

in the court, and they're wrong.

282

: 00:14:12

The first impression you make with the

judge is in your paperwork, because any

283

: 00:14:18

judge who's worth their salt has read

all of the paperwork before they come

284

: 00:14:22

out of chambers and take the bench.

285

: 00:14:25

They've already made a decision,

conscious or unconscious, about

286

: 00:14:30

who's ready, who's prepared.

287

: 00:14:32

They've got an impression of you.

288

: 00:14:34

Based solely on what you file

with that, which is why when mom

289

: 00:14:38

files, a stack of papers, this,

that, and dad's got, you know, yes,

290

: 00:14:45

Lesa Koski: he's holding up a post it.

291

: 00:14:50

David Pisarra: Come on, dude.

292

: 00:14:50

Like you want to show up

for your kids show up.

293

: 00:14:54

And the third one is the mindset.

294

: 00:14:57

Third one is they, they

still slip back into that.

295

: 00:15:02

She's the better parent

because she's the mom.

296

: 00:15:05

She's more nurturing

because she's the mom.

297

: 00:15:08

I should just let my kids

go because she's the mom.

298

: 00:15:11

I can't do that because she's the

mother of my children and they have

299

: 00:15:18

to move from that like very dependent

relationship to an independent.

300

: 00:15:24

I have to have my own

relationship with my kids.

301

: 00:15:27

She has to have her relationship.

302

: 00:15:31

Lesa Koski: I feel like we could

talk about that forever too.

303

: 00:15:34

I mean, that's such a huge thing.

304

: 00:15:37

And that is.

305

: 00:15:38

I find with people, it's

like things are changing.

306

: 00:15:42

You are not married.

307

: 00:15:43

You know, now it's, you both

have to step up in different

308

: 00:15:46

ways than you have in the past.

309

: 00:15:49

David Pisarra: Right.

310

: 00:15:49

Lesa Koski: I mean, it affects,

and I think that sometimes people

311

: 00:15:52

don't think through that before

they move forward with a divorce.

312

: 00:15:58

Go ahead.

313

: 00:15:58

You were going to say something.

314

: 00:16:01

David Pisarra: So this is one of those

where it's like, I walk a very fine

315

: 00:16:04

line on this one because it's a very hot

button topic where I say many women make

316

: 00:16:09

a huge mistake in divorcing a good guy

because they think that they're going

317

: 00:16:15

to get so much better because their

girlfriends are giving them that, Oh,

318

: 00:16:20

you go girl, you deserve so much better.

319

: 00:16:22

He's not that great.

320

: 00:16:23

He isn't doing this.

321

: 00:16:24

He's not doing that.

322

: 00:16:25

You deserve more.

323

: 00:16:26

You And it's like, honey, I

got to tell you something.

324

: 00:16:29

I've seen an awful lot

of couples break up.

325

: 00:16:31

And most of the time, the second husbands

are not that different from the first.

326

: 00:16:37

Lesa Koski: And you know,

327

: 00:16:40

David Pisarra: you're just not going to

go from Joe, the truck driver, standard

328

: 00:16:45

American guy to like, Oh, I don't know.

329

: 00:16:49

Let's pick a celebrity Brad Pitt.

330

: 00:16:52

You're not making that leap socially.

331

: 00:16:54

You're gonna marry another guy

who's pretty much in that same

332

: 00:16:57

socioeconomic era that you are.

333

: 00:17:00

So, unless they're like alcohol

abuse, drug abuse, physically abusive,

334

: 00:17:05

if they're just a normal average

guy, you're probably gonna end up

335

: 00:17:09

with another normal average guy.

336

: 00:17:11

Lesa Koski: Well, and I think

what you're saying, I mean,

337

: 00:17:13

the statistics speak to that.

338

: 00:17:15

Second marriages break up way

more than first marriages.

339

: 00:17:20

And I like that you, you brought that

up because It, it's so odd that I'm in

340

: 00:17:25

this business because I love marriage

and I believe in marriage and my husband

341

: 00:17:31

and I have been through stuff, right?

342

: 00:17:33

And so, um, I like to help

people stay together when they

343

: 00:17:37

can because of what you said.

344

: 00:17:39

And a lot of times if

you can work on yourself.

345

: 00:17:44

You can save your marriage.

346

: 00:17:45

It's really interesting if you can make

some changes, but at the very least, if

347

: 00:17:51

you are going through a divorce for some

reason, then you feel like it's a must

348

: 00:17:57

work on yourself, work on yourself through

this, after this, before you Connect with

349

: 00:18:04

another person or your spouse because you

need to be able to heal and find someone

350

: 00:18:12

that's really going to be a good fit.

351

: 00:18:14

So I love that you brought that up to

352

: 00:18:16

David Pisarra: you said you've been

married like 32 years in 32 years.

353

: 00:18:21

How many of those years has

your husband made you happy?

354

: 00:18:26

Lesa Koski: Well, here's the deal.

355

: 00:18:27

I don't really think that we're, I think

what you learn is you make yourself happy.

356

: 00:18:32

Bingo!

357

: 00:18:37

David Pisarra: Because you can't,

you cannot make someone else happy.

358

: 00:18:43

Happiness is an inside job.

359

: 00:18:46

That's why it's so important for

dads to show up because they have

360

: 00:18:50

to mimic that for their children.

361

: 00:18:52

They have to model for them.

362

: 00:18:53

They have to mentor their kids.

363

: 00:18:56

This is an inside job.

364

: 00:18:57

And that's one of the main roles.

365

: 00:18:58

Fathers bring the parenting.

366

: 00:19:01

Lesa Koski: Yeah, I love that.

367

: 00:19:02

I love that so much that it's a

PR I'm looking at the time and I'm

368

: 00:19:06

like, this is the perfect time to in

doing divorce different and David,

369

: 00:19:10

I, what I want my listeners to know.

370

: 00:19:13

If you want to hear more from David,

he's going to be on saddle up live too.

371

: 00:19:19

And we're going to talk about

how dad's roles have changed.

372

: 00:19:24

And I'm so excited to talk about

this because my son is a dad and

373

: 00:19:28

I, you know, and I, my husband

was a great father, very involved.

374

: 00:19:32

I can't even believe.

375

: 00:19:34

How things have changed.

376

: 00:19:35

So I'm really excited to talk

to you about that listeners.

377

: 00:19:39

If you need more information, we're

going to have David's information in the

378

: 00:19:43

show notes, reach out to him, find him.

379

: 00:19:46

How do they, how do they

reach out to your website?

380

: 00:19:49

Is that the best way?

381

: 00:19:50

David Pisarra: The best way

is you go to dadslawschool.

382

: 00:19:52

com.

383

: 00:19:53

You got, I've got free stuff on there.

384

: 00:19:54

I've got a membership for dads who

want to like join and get, we've

385

: 00:19:58

got monthly meetups twice a month.

386

: 00:19:59

We've got video courses that teach

dads how to write that declaration,

387

: 00:20:03

how to use evidence in court.

388

: 00:20:05

It's designed to give you

what you need to prove to the

389

: 00:20:07

judge that you're a great dad.

390

: 00:20:09

Lesa Koski: Perfect.

391

: 00:20:10

Perfect.

392

: 00:20:10

David, thank you so much for joining me.

393

: 00:20:13

David Pisarra: Thank you, Lisa.