Love Lessons After Divorce: Heidi Friedman’s Path to True Partnership

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Welcome listeners.

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I am really excited to

have you here today.

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I have a new friend, Heidi

Friedman, and she's an attorney,

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but we're kind of not gonna talk

about law, which is really cool.

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And I am so drawn to Heidi because

her agent sent me a little bit of

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information about this is these

are the things she can talk about.

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Divorce is not failure.

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Love won't find you on the couch.

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Love that.

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It's true.

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Yes, it's so true.

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Become your best self first.

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I just did a podcast on this about

really, um, working on yourself and

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that's what's gonna save your marriage.

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You know, make the divorce easier or help

you find love, so that, I just love that.

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And so I'm like, Ooh, we're so aligned.

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But here's a really fun thing is Heidi

has a book called Love Lessons 104 Dates,

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and the stories that led me to True Love.

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I.

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That's what we're gonna talk about today

and she's got 11 lessons and I'm gonna

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let you know Heidi, on this podcast.

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We love to get to know the authentic

person here, so if you could just

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share your story and then if we can

jump into those lessons and listeners,

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we will have a link to her book in

the show notes so you can make sure

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and go get more out of her actual

book than what we can cover today.

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But Heidi, welcome and thank

you for taking the time to be.

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Speaker 3: I'm so excited to be here.

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I love all that you're doing and

I'm excited to share my story.

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Speaker: I can't wait to hear.

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So fill us in a little bit on what

you, what was your hard story?

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What did you go through?

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I.

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Speaker 3: You know, so my, um,

my divorce, I would say, happened

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when my kids were three and five.

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So it was the first in my community here.

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It was a very difficult time.

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I was a true single mom.

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And then I spent the next 10

years of my life dating basically,

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and I took lots of breaks.

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I definitely, you know, got sick

of it and all of the things.

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But as part of that journey, when I

turned 40 and I had been dating for

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several years, I decided that I didn't

really understand what true love was.

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I.

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Which I know people may judge and say,

well, you were married, you know, but

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I didn't have that true partner in love

all the time kind of person in my life.

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And so I started interviewing

people who I thought.

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Under, you know, with my eyes were

people that were in great marriages,

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they had picked their right partner.

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And I interviewed both men and

women and I asked them a bunch of

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questions just like, how did you know?

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And like, what makes you wanna stay?

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And all of the things.

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And I realized that.

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Very quickly that, you know, even

after I talked about 50 people,

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they were all sort of saying the

same things, using different words.

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So everyone experience was

a little bit different.

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And I was looking for that.

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Just tell me like the one thing,

I'm a lawyer, everything's black

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and white to me, as you know.

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Right.

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Um, and I'm an over analyzer, and so I was

just said, you know, let's figure it out.

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But yet it was still kind of gray,

but these themes were emerging.

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And then I, so I wrote the first part

of my book then, and then I put it

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away and I dated some more and I got

ed up with my husband, um, in: 2013

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And we just celebrated our

10 year wedding anniversary.

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We got married

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Speaker 2: in.

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Speaker 3: So I found the absolute

love of my life and portion of the book

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talks about the themes applied to that.

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And then I spatter in a lot of

good and bad dating stories.

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There was, you know, 104 dates,

not 104 guys, but 104 dates.

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Um, and then I talk about the

lessons, and I'll be honest that

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I wrote the book for my kids.

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I have two kids that I birthed and

two bonus kids, and I very much

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view them all as my children, and

I just didn't want them to repeat

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the same mistakes that I made.

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I really wanted them not to

settle to find their true partner

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and to learn from my journey.

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So the book was The Gift.

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To them.

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And then if I can give anyone else maybe

a little bit of hope, I'm successful.

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Speaker: Yeah, I love that.

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And it's interesting because

those are my people I want, I

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mean, and it's, it's not only.

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The woman who's been through a divorce

who wants to find marriage and have

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it better, it's those young girls

that come running up to me at baby

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showers and go, I know you do that

divorce podcast and you do divorces and

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what's, and I've been married 35 years.

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They're like, wow, what's the secret?

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How do you stay married?

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And so I keep.

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I keep looking at that as well, so I

feel like it's so fitting that I've

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come across you because, and maybe

we can work together on something.

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I'm thinking I'm writing a book

right now, but future, okay.

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I would love to do a course to help people

before they get married, you know, to.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Like you're not thinking

about these things.

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I, I, and I almost, even though

it's not a checklist, it's somewhat

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of, you know, 'cause you don't

have to have every single thing.

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Right.

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I mean, some of the themes emerge

more than others, but you do

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have to think about much more

than chemistry or attraction and.

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And there's so much more to it, and

I've talked a lot to my kids about,

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A friend of mine came up with this

term called Noah's Ark syndrome,

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which I love, which is the idea that.

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The world puts us into

this, you know, matching.

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You have to have a pair in your life.

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You have to be two by two by

two, you know, all the time.

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Mm-hmm.

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And I definitely, you

mentioned it at the beginning.

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I went through an extensive personal

journey over those 10 years, and I

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became the best version of myself

that allowed me to be in this.

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Better relationship.

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And I decided that I'd rather be a single

person than be with the wrong person.

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And I think we have to embrace that.

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Yeah.

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And not be so compelled to just

date someone so that we have another

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Speaker: Right.

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Amen.

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And I think it's so interesting

because as you're talking.

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I feel like I have grown.

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I was so young when I got married.

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I feel like I have been 35

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Speaker 3: years is impressive though.

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Speaker: Well, thank you.

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I know, and it's just all been so easy.

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker: Exactly.

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Not at all.

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And we've screwed things up and I don't

always feel like he's my true love.

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Right.

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But, um, I continue to grow.

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And that's okay.

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Like it's not scary.

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Right.

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And even if we grow a little different,

it doesn't mean we're growing apart.

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It means like we're kind of becoming,

it's really beautiful Right.

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And exciting and fun.

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So I can't wait.

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I just, as I'm sitting here, so I wanna

know those 11 lessons, but I'm so curious.

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Are, are so in that is what you found

out from the people, is this the,

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your research are these 11 lessons

from that research, from those

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people that had great marriages?

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Speaker 3: Well, they're a combination of

the marriage themes, some of the things

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I learned from my own relationship,

and then some of the things that I

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learned about dating, because they

also, some of the lessons are about

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putting yourself out there mm-hmm.

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And screaming from the rooftops,

meaning like, tell everybody, you

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know, if you really wanna date.

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Yeah.

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You know, you can't stay in

your little, so, so it's a

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combination of all of those things.

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Um, and.

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What the idea is just that you think

about them as you go on your journey,

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and hopefully what they do is they

give you a foundation and a mindset

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that allows you to have an open

heart and an open mind to receive.

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And I totally agree with you

that, you know, you grow together.

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I will tell you one of my themes

is that, um, you, the other person

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makes you into your best self.

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My husband, a hundred

percent does that for me.

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He's such a good person.

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Mm-hmm.

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He's taught me so much about art and

culture and politics and things that I

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didn't really have in my life growing up.

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And I, I just think my life is

so much fuller and I strive to

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do everything you know better

because of him and his support.

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And so I do think there's

a dynamic where we're all

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constantly evolving and changing.

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Mm-hmm.

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But the question is,

are you in a position.

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From go right now to be

in that relationship.

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Right, and I think what I realized during

the beginning of my journey was that

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I had tons of professional confidence.

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I was a partner in a large law firm,

I had a really successful practice.

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I could go into any meeting

and be like, this is how it's.

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Going.

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Um, but I had no personal confidence.

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I just didn't think I was worthy

and it took a lot of work and

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I'm a huge fan of therapy.

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Yeah.

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To get to the point where I could say no

to something that wasn't what I needed in

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my life, and it took a while to get there.

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Speaker: I, I so agree, and I feel

like even though I've had a different

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journey, I've kind of had the same

evolution and it has been, you know,

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learning how to set up a boundary.

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And what I love is I set up

a boundary and my husband, I.

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It like helps us both.

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Mm-hmm.

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It's not his problem that I didn't

set it up before or that I over gived

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or that, you know, whatever it is.

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So it's just been so fun

to learn all of this.

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So Heidi, we gotta dig in because

time's too away and I'm getting nervous.

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Well, the

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Speaker 3: only thing I was gonna

say, not to interrupt Lisa, is

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the one most surprising thing

about my book that I have heard.

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So you can connect with me in my book at.

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Love lessons 1 0 4.

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I have an email in there

and all of the things.

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Awesome.

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I have received so many emails from

married people who married women mostly,

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I will be honest, that, um, said that

the book made them like, stop and think

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about their marriage and want to like,

try harder and dig deeper and remember

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what they brought them together.

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And that has been really meaningful to

me because I knew I would tap into this.

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You know, post-divorce dating

market, probably with my journey.

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But that was a, that was an area that

I didn't realize I would touch, and

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I was so excited that yeah, it, you

know, people got something from it.

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Speaker: I love that.

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I love that.

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And I can't wait to read it.

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I wish I could have read it

before I will be reading it.

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So go ahead.

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Why don't you just get started

and begin with those 11 lessons.

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Speaker 3: So I, let me see.

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I don't have a copy of

the book next to me.

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Let, I won't go through all of them, but

I'll give you some of the highlights of

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Speaker: Yep, that is perfect.

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Speaker 3: And so some of the, the

ones I will start with is, I, I, two

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of them I would put together, which

is, um, to put yourself out there

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and to scream what you want from the

rooftops, which I just mentioned.

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And when I say put yourself out there,

I mean somebody, for example was, um.

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Trying to date and leave a relationship,

but we still had one foot in the

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relationship and I was like, until

you break that off, you're not open,

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you know, open heart to somebody new.

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Yeah.

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That's like one example.

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The other thing is I'm

a huge fan of the apps.

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I actually have, um, a podcast with

my 22-year-old called I Love You More,

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Speaker 2: and

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Speaker 3: we talk about

dating and relationships.

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Um, among the generations and he's

fantastic, but I have learned so much

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about the younger generation and apps.

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But I think, you know, and, and how much

they focus on that for their own journeys.

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But for my journey personally and

for anyone that comes to me, what

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I think it does is it's like, you

know, you wouldn't go into your.

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Like your dream job

interview without practice.

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And I think that the apps allow you,

if you dig in to do due diligence,

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to communicate with someone in

advance and then to like have low

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expectations to go into this like date.

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Just to practice.

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Yeah.

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And if something happens, fab.

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But if not.

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No.

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Right.

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You know, it's fine.

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So it kind of just opens your mind

into dating, puts you in that vibey

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space of dating, which I love.

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Uh, and then the rooftop thing is,

so I met my husband, um, through

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a friend at yoga and I used the

term friends loosely because at

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the time now she's like my sister.

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But at the time.

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I did yoga in the front row and

there was like four of us who

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were always in the same spots.

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It was hot yoga and

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Speaker: we, I do that too, so I totally

can see what you're talking about.

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Speaker 3: It's the

best thing in the world.

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But it took like a couple

years before I even said hello.

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And then you started

seeing these people, right?

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And we ended up like becoming friendly

and it got to be this sort of funny

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thing where I'd go on dates on Saturday

and I'd tell them on Sunday morning

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about the dates and you know, it

was just this funny process, but.

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The wo, this woman Ann, she once said

to me, well, I keep seeing this guy and

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every time I see him I think of you.

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Are you open?

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I'm like, am I open?

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Like, yes, Uhhuh.

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So, um, you know, she fixed

us up and the rest is history.

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But that was so, like, this was my circle

and they were all fixing me up 10 ways

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to Tuesday and it was like nothing.

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And then once I went out into this.

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Broader circle and I tell

people, tell people, you know,

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at work, join a running club.

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You know, you really have

to like expand your circle.

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So tho those are probably, in

my view, two of the biggest.

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The most important one, which I

almost think needs no explanation

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at all, is do not settle.

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Like you just, you have to tune up

your gut and listen to your gut.

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Like you cannot settle.

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You just, if you do, you will regret

it at one place, one point or another.

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Um, and then another

really big one, which was.

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Probably one that I took the

longest to learn is I am a fixer,

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like Olivia Pope is my hero.

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I am a fixer.

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I fix everything.

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Mm-hmm.

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If I can't fix the problem,

like it devastates me.

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So I'm like all about that.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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But

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Speaker 3: you can't fix other people.

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People have to fix themselves.

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And so like my son and I did a podcast.

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On this one, an episode

called No Projects.

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And what I keep telling my kids is,

you know, you really want somebody who

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is gonna make you your best self's,

gonna be a true partner and you

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know nobody that you need to fix up.

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And so that's a really big.

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Lesson for me like that I

think is, you know, not fix

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up, like, fix up like matchup.

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Yeah.

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Fix up like tuneup, like, you

know, make them, you know, stop

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drinking, get a better job.

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You know, I'm not saying people don't

change, but you can't end up being

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with someone with the hopes that you're

gonna make them into something else.

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So that's a big one.

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Speaker: And, and Heidi, you know,

it's interesting because even in my

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long-term marriage, I'm just learning,

you know, like my husband's had some

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health issues and I become this.

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Rescuer and I wanna make all the changes.

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And finally I looked at him

and I said, here's the deal.

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Like I wanna send you this

information, but it's your decision.

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I'm gonna support you no matter what.

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However you want to live is okay.

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However you want to handle this is okay,

and I'm just going to, to hand this

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over to you and be there to support you.

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And I think I was just always, I thought

I had to take care of it and we, we

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all fell into that role, you know?

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Right.

320

: 00:15:26

I'm gonna take of everything.

321

: 00:15:28

And so even if you're in a marriage.

322

: 00:15:30

You can change that, you can change

your life inside of that as well, but

323

: 00:15:35

better to like start the marriage off

on the right foot and to, you know,

324

: 00:15:39

know yourself and not I, and I hear

you, because I am, I am the rescuer.

325

: 00:15:46

I would buy the kitties with the

burnt off whiskers and broken tails.

326

: 00:15:49

You know, I was.

327

: 00:15:50

That was who I was.

328

: 00:15:51

That's not who my husband

is by, well, not broken.

329

: 00:15:55

Speaker 3: No, no, no.

330

: 00:15:56

But like one of the themes.

331

: 00:15:57

So there's difference between like the

lessons and the themes in the book.

332

: 00:16:00

Well, one of the themes, and probably

my favorite theme, to be honest with you

333

: 00:16:04

is I heard over and over again couples

talk about the fact that they take.

334

: 00:16:08

Turns caring for each other.

335

: 00:16:11

So there was no one person

caring all the time.

336

: 00:16:13

And the analogy I actually had with

my therapist around this topic, which

337

: 00:16:17

why I think it was so impactful to me

'cause we were working on exactly what

338

: 00:16:21

you're talking about, is that you're

in an ocean and there's these waves

339

: 00:16:26

and sometimes I'm gonna go under and

my husband, his name's Will, will pull,

340

: 00:16:30

pull me up and sometimes he's gonna

go under, maybe he had a significant.

341

: 00:16:35

He actually had breast

cancer a couple years ago.

342

: 00:16:37

Men, if you get breast

cancer too, that's my PSAI.

343

: 00:16:41

Speaker: I had that.

344

: 00:16:42

Speaker 3: Oh, you did?

345

: 00:16:44

Speaker: I had, that was my

hard thing that I just went,

346

: 00:16:46

I had, they caught stage one.

347

: 00:16:48

Speaker 3: Yeah, same.

348

: 00:16:48

So, I

349

: 00:16:49

Speaker: mean, but it was hard.

350

: 00:16:50

I mean, I had to go

through a lot, a lot of,

351

: 00:16:53

Speaker 3: we did radiation

and chemo and all the things.

352

: 00:16:55

Me too.

353

: 00:16:56

Yeah.

354

: 00:16:56

They went through all of

it and it was my turn.

355

: 00:16:59

You know, and the idea though is

that you don't have one person as

356

: 00:17:03

the pull upper every single time.

357

: 00:17:06

It's a, the dichotomy of both.

358

: 00:17:08

And I just have this like vision

and my, my, I think my son finds

359

: 00:17:12

that one super impactful too.

360

: 00:17:14

And so.

361

: 00:17:14

That goes to what you're saying, and

I think that that was a very clear

362

: 00:17:18

theme throughout my conversations.

363

: 00:17:20

Speaker: Well, and I love that you're

saying this because I can't help think,

364

: 00:17:23

and I think Brene Brown, I think she said

something or it was in one of her books.

365

: 00:17:27

I don't know if who, you know

who she is, but Oh, for sure.

366

: 00:17:30

Yeah.

367

: 00:17:30

She Who

368

: 00:17:30

Speaker 3: doesn't know

who she's I know, I

369

: 00:17:32

Speaker: know.

370

: 00:17:32

Well, some people don't.

371

: 00:17:33

Yeah.

372

: 00:17:34

But she said something about when

her and her husband start the day.

373

: 00:17:40

She's like, yeah, I'm kind

of at a 20 here today.

374

: 00:17:43

20% here.

375

: 00:17:43

Yes, I've heard her.

376

: 00:17:45

Well, I'm at an 80, so I'm gonna

like carry you along today.

377

: 00:17:48

And I'm like, I love.

378

: 00:17:50

Speaker 3: Yes.

379

: 00:17:50

Speaker: That's kind

of what you're saying.

380

: 00:17:52

Speaker 3: That's exactly what I'm saying.

381

: 00:17:53

Mm-hmm.

382

: 00:17:54

So, you know, we have some stuff going on.

383

: 00:17:55

We're actually moving from Ohio to

California at the end of the summer, and

384

: 00:17:59

I have to take, you'll appreciate this,

a portion of the California bar exam.

385

: 00:18:03

Oh.

386

: 00:18:04

I mean, and I've been

practicing for 30 years, so.

387

: 00:18:07

It's just this crazy thing.

388

: 00:18:08

But basically what I said is, okay,

I'll do this because it's for a

389

: 00:18:12

job for my husband, but for the

rest of the summer you have to take

390

: 00:18:16

over like di everything basically.

391

: 00:18:18

Mm-hmm.

392

: 00:18:18

Like, I'm gonna do my job

and do this, and that's it.

393

: 00:18:21

So it's just, it's the give and take.

394

: 00:18:23

And he was like, amen, sister, I'll

like rub you whatever you need.

395

: 00:18:27

Right.

396

: 00:18:27

So, you know, it it's, it's

the give and take on that.

397

: 00:18:30

Yeah.

398

: 00:18:31

Speaker: And I, and I do think,

Heidi, as I see my adult children

399

: 00:18:34

in their marriages with their

children, it is a different world.

400

: 00:18:38

It is different than

when I was raising them.

401

: 00:18:41

They are a team.

402

: 00:18:42

They, I mean, my daughter's

in her residency.

403

: 00:18:44

I think my son-in-law's, you know,

they have a child and Oh, that's

404

: 00:18:47

Speaker 3: beautiful.

405

: 00:18:48

Yeah.

406

: 00:18:49

Yeah.

407

: 00:18:49

Speaker: It's, um, it's a lot.

408

: 00:18:50

And then my son, our children

409

: 00:18:51

Speaker 3: are not quite there yet.

410

: 00:18:54

Speaker: Yeah.

411

: 00:18:54

Well, but you'll, it's fun to watch.

412

: 00:18:56

Yeah.

413

: 00:18:56

And, and fun to.

414

: 00:18:58

See the role.

415

: 00:18:59

It has changed.

416

: 00:19:00

Speaker 3: Yeah, it's good.

417

: 00:19:01

Yeah.

418

: 00:19:02

I see it on the younger

guys on my team too.

419

: 00:19:04

They're much more.

420

: 00:19:06

Um, involved.

421

: 00:19:07

I love that, like I do too.

422

: 00:19:08

You

423

: 00:19:09

Speaker 2: know,

424

: 00:19:09

Speaker 3: it, it, you know, our, our

dads take paternity leave, you know, three

425

: 00:19:13

months and it, it's, it's really special.

426

: 00:19:16

I, I think, you know, viewing

each other as equals is such an

427

: 00:19:20

impactful piece of all of it.

428

: 00:19:23

Amen.

429

: 00:19:23

No matter

430

: 00:19:24

Speaker: what role, because I

love the stay at home moms too.

431

: 00:19:27

I mean, I did that for a while.

432

: 00:19:28

I love that role.

433

: 00:19:29

Speaker 3: That's equal too.

434

: 00:19:31

It just depends, you know,

it's every, whatever.

435

: 00:19:34

You know.

436

: 00:19:34

Everyone deserves that equality

no matter what they're doing.

437

: 00:19:38

For sure.

438

: 00:19:38

Exactly.

439

: 00:19:39

Speaker: Okay, so I'm so curious.

440

: 00:19:41

So keep going.

441

: 00:19:42

So what are the big things

and those relationships?

442

: 00:19:46

So you said that they would carry

each other when they needed to.

443

: 00:19:50

Mm-hmm.

444

: 00:19:50

That was one thing.

445

: 00:19:51

Right?

446

: 00:19:52

What else was there that

these couples in that had.

447

: 00:19:56

Great marriages.

448

: 00:19:57

What, what was, what were they doing?

449

: 00:19:59

What was the, you said there were like

five themes that were similar and there

450

: 00:20:02

Speaker 3: was like, at the end, I

can't remember if I ended up with like

451

: 00:20:04

eight or nine, but some of the other

ones were, um, that they felt safe.

452

: 00:20:10

They felt like they were at

home, you know, depending.

453

: 00:20:14

On who was explaining it, you know, more

the, the safety thing was interesting.

454

: 00:20:18

Um, I'll throw in that because I think

it, that was really riveting to me.

455

: 00:20:22

I had interviewed about 50 ish

people in, you know, when I was 40

456

: 00:20:27

and then I wrote the book last year.

457

: 00:20:29

And so it's been a long time.

458

: 00:20:30

Mm-hmm.

459

: 00:20:30

And I was like, you know, I

need to spot check my data.

460

: 00:20:33

Just that kind of person.

461

: 00:20:35

And so I talked to like five or six.

462

: 00:20:37

People again and ask them the

same questions and the same

463

: 00:20:41

themes came out all over again.

464

: 00:20:43

Except instead of saying things like,

I felt like home, every single person

465

: 00:20:48

I talked to used the word safe.

466

: 00:20:50

Like I felt safe.

467

: 00:20:51

And I wondered if that

was like a post COVID.

468

: 00:20:54

Um, interesting.

469

: 00:20:56

Like, like if for some, I looked

back at my notes from like.

470

: 00:21:00

You know, when I first did it and

no one necessarily used the word

471

: 00:21:02

safe, they felt comfortable home,

able to share that kind of stuff.

472

: 00:21:06

But the safety thing

was a post COVID thing.

473

: 00:21:09

So I thought that was interesting.

474

: 00:21:10

Speaker: That's really interesting.

475

: 00:21:12

And when I think of safe,

safe can cover a lot of, sure.

476

: 00:21:16

You know, it can mean

like safe in trusting.

477

: 00:21:20

Exactly safe and that they're

telling you the truth safe and

478

: 00:21:23

that they're being true to you.

479

: 00:21:25

Safe.

480

: 00:21:26

You know, I mean, as much

as all the things being able

481

: 00:21:30

to be who you really are.

482

: 00:21:32

Speaker 3: Right.

483

: 00:21:32

Speaker: That's huge.

484

: 00:21:33

Speaker 3: Right,

485

: 00:21:34

Speaker: right.

486

: 00:21:35

Well,

487

: 00:21:35

Speaker 3: and and, and that is,

was definitely one of the things,

488

: 00:21:38

themes too, is really that.

489

: 00:21:40

You know, you can be your authentic self.

490

: 00:21:43

I remember one of the people I interviewed

said like, he totally embraces my crazy.

491

: 00:21:47

And I thought that was

like hilarious but true.

492

: 00:21:50

We all have some crazy, and, and people,

you know, to embrace it and, and I heard a

493

: 00:21:55

lot about he or she makes me my best self.

494

: 00:21:59

I mean, there was a lot

of discussion about that.

495

: 00:22:02

There was a lot of explanation

about feeling like, you know.

496

: 00:22:07

He or she made me a better person.

497

: 00:22:09

And you know, I, I talked to young

couples, old couples, same sex couples.

498

: 00:22:14

You know, it's just interesting because it

just was across the board the same ideas.

499

: 00:22:20

And my favorite part about it both then

and now is when you ask people about.

500

: 00:22:27

When they met their partner, how

they knew their face lights up.

501

: 00:22:31

Yeah.

502

: 00:22:31

They get super excited to talk about it.

503

: 00:22:34

I mean, I'm usually

like, I got what I need.

504

: 00:22:36

I gotta go, you know, but, but

people were like super excited.

505

: 00:22:40

It just, they could go on and on and you

know, it was so beautiful on some level.

506

: 00:22:47

Yeah.

507

: 00:22:47

Because you see kind of.

508

: 00:22:49

Even like, you know, my nana

who has since passed away, you

509

: 00:22:53

know, she had a second marriage.

510

: 00:22:55

That was the love of her life and

we talked a lot and like she could

511

: 00:23:00

just, you know, listening to her talk

about their relationship and things,

512

: 00:23:04

it was just beautiful And, and so,

and my parents had been married for.

513

: 00:23:08

Um, 60 plus years.

514

: 00:23:09

And so they've kind of been my

idealistic, um, you know, star or whatever

515

: 00:23:15

you wanna talk, you know, call it.

516

: 00:23:16

And so I did interview both of them and I

always interviewed the couples separately

517

: 00:23:21

because I didn't want one person to

influence what the other person said,

518

: 00:23:25

but I ne I didn't always interview both.

519

: 00:23:28

The husband or wife or what?

520

: 00:23:29

Or the partners or whatever,

because I only interviewed like

521

: 00:23:33

if I knew them both that well, for

example, because I didn't wanna pry.

522

: 00:23:37

I mean, we did talk about sex

here and there and whatever, so I

523

: 00:23:40

didn't really wanna pry with people

that I didn't know that well.

524

: 00:23:43

Speaker: Right, right.

525

: 00:23:44

So are those actual

interviews in the book?

526

: 00:23:48

Speaker 3: There, there're not,

there's quotes from the interviews.

527

: 00:23:52

Okay.

528

: 00:23:52

I like that.

529

: 00:23:52

But I don't have a play by play.

530

: 00:23:54

I just, the first part of the

book is a summary of the themes

531

: 00:23:57

based on how people describe them.

532

: 00:23:59

Speaker: Right.

533

: 00:24:00

Okay.

534

: 00:24:00

And one thing I just have to

hit on, 'cause it's jumping

535

: 00:24:03

into my, my little brain here.

536

: 00:24:05

When you talk about.

537

: 00:24:06

Making you your best self.

538

: 00:24:09

I don't think that means like,

you know how that he completes me.

539

: 00:24:14

I feel like, ugh.

540

: 00:24:15

No, I don't think that's, I

don't think that's what you mean.

541

: 00:24:18

And it's not that you need

them to make you who you are.

542

: 00:24:23

That's not what it is.

543

: 00:24:24

I think that that part, and so I

just wanna clarify that with you.

544

: 00:24:27

When I think about my husband,

I think it's his belief in me.

545

: 00:24:32

Mm-hmm.

546

: 00:24:33

That when I have a.

547

: 00:24:35

A hair-brained idea.

548

: 00:24:37

He listens and he doesn't think

I'm nuts and he supports it.

549

: 00:24:41

You know what I mean?

550

: 00:24:42

And, and that support is what's

making, can make me better,

551

: 00:24:46

but it's not that I need him.

552

: 00:24:49

To make me better.

553

: 00:24:50

You know what I mean?

554

: 00:24:51

Does that make sense?

555

: 00:24:52

Absolutely.

556

: 00:24:53

Speaker 3: You, you need to be fully

good and your best self on your own.

557

: 00:24:59

Mm-hmm.

558

: 00:24:59

I mean, I'm a big Jerry

McGuire fan and you completely,

559

: 00:25:03

Speaker: you knew where

560

: 00:25:03

Speaker 3: that came from.

561

: 00:25:05

I mean, of course, but it, it, it,

it and Will does complete my life.

562

: 00:25:11

But not myself.

563

: 00:25:12

No.

564

: 00:25:12

And I think there's a difference there.

565

: 00:25:15

He makes my life fuller and better,

but I was already complete without him.

566

: 00:25:20

And you know, I'll give you an example.

567

: 00:25:21

I, I'm super focused on my kids.

568

: 00:25:23

You can, you can see, but um, this

Valentine's Day, none of my kids

569

: 00:25:28

right now have significant others.

570

: 00:25:30

They all read the book and I feel

like now they're like, but one of

571

: 00:25:35

them did and actually broke up after.

572

: 00:25:37

They read the book, which was

interesting, but so it was pretty quick

573

: 00:25:40

after that breakup and everything.

574

: 00:25:42

So I sent all four kids a hundred dollars

each on Valentine's Day, and I told them

575

: 00:25:48

that they were their own best Valentine

and that I'm sending them money that they

576

: 00:25:51

have to use on something for themselves.

577

: 00:25:54

And they can go sit at a bar and

then get a nice dinner and a glass

578

: 00:25:58

of wine or they can go get a massage.

579

: 00:26:00

But until they're their best

selves, they're not gonna

580

: 00:26:02

be ready for anyone else.

581

: 00:26:04

And so they should use the money to

invest on becoming their best selves.

582

: 00:26:07

I mean, you can only do so much with

a hundred bucks, but it was the point

583

: 00:26:10

of reminding them to like focus on the

I focus before we can focus on the we.

584

: 00:26:16

Speaker: I love that.

585

: 00:26:17

And amen.

586

: 00:26:19

I mean, I feel like if that, that is like.

587

: 00:26:21

If there is one thing, this episode has

so many helpful insights, but I think

588

: 00:26:26

if there is one thing to take away from

this, it's that like, yeah, be your

589

: 00:26:32

best self, be happy where you're at.

590

: 00:26:34

And it's so fun.

591

: 00:26:36

I have some friends who

have been through really.

592

: 00:26:38

Tough situations.

593

: 00:26:39

Mm-hmm.

594

: 00:26:39

Difficult marriages where they would

set up boundaries and they didn't go

595

: 00:26:42

the way that it's going in my life.

596

: 00:26:45

You know what I mean?

597

: 00:26:45

And, and, and they did end

up going through a divorce.

598

: 00:26:49

And then to watch them be so thoughtful.

599

: 00:26:54

And get help, get support on.

600

: 00:26:56

Right.

601

: 00:26:56

You know, there's dating coaches,

there's therapists, right.

602

: 00:26:59

There's a

603

: 00:27:00

Speaker 3: coach for everything nowadays.

604

: 00:27:01

For sure.

605

: 00:27:02

Speaker: There is.

606

: 00:27:03

There is.

607

: 00:27:03

And it's helpful.

608

: 00:27:04

It's really helpful.

609

: 00:27:05

For sure, for sure.

610

: 00:27:06

And so this friend of mine is

really, she's going, she did go get

611

: 00:27:12

on an app and she's not that way.

612

: 00:27:14

She, you know, she's a little shy

about it, but she's like making

613

: 00:27:18

herself ask him hard questions.

614

: 00:27:21

Speaker 3: Right.

615

: 00:27:22

Speaker: You know, hard

questions that, do you have STDs?

616

: 00:27:25

I mean,

617

: 00:27:26

Speaker 3: well,

618

: 00:27:26

Speaker: sure.

619

: 00:27:27

No,

620

: 00:27:28

Speaker 3: I mean, you, you gotta ask.

621

: 00:27:30

I mean, I will say the challenge I

think in with dating apps, right, is

622

: 00:27:35

you, you definitely aren't necessarily

creating an authentic foundation.

623

: 00:27:39

You're creating a story or a vibe or

something that is setting you up to

624

: 00:27:44

meet somebody because you're attracted

to their story or vibe, right?

625

: 00:27:47

So you really do have to dig in.

626

: 00:27:49

Mm-hmm.

627

: 00:27:49

And.

628

: 00:27:51

It would have to be a true connection

where you then go to authenticity because

629

: 00:27:55

authenticity is a foundation for a good

relationship, and I don't think the

630

: 00:27:59

apps do that, but I love that she's

doing that and she's asking, well, she's

631

: 00:28:03

Speaker: not doing it on the app.

632

: 00:28:04

She's after, I'm sorry, I should

have clarified, she's, she's like

633

: 00:28:08

Speaker 3: emailing or

whatever and they've

634

: 00:28:10

Speaker: like, well, no, they've been

dating and now they've been dating.

635

: 00:28:13

Okay.

636

: 00:28:13

They've become exclusive

and she's got this list.

637

: 00:28:17

Of like, well, this is what

I have to ask him about.

638

: 00:28:19

And that's hard.

639

: 00:28:20

Yeah,

640

: 00:28:21

Speaker 3: yeah.

641

: 00:28:21

Speaker: You know, but it's just like

real, real life stuff that Right, right.

642

: 00:28:25

Why would I get into this if I,

if this isn't gonna be a good fit?

643

: 00:28:29

Speaker 3: Right.

644

: 00:28:30

A hundred percent.

645

: 00:28:31

Especially if you have kids and things

like that, then it looks even crazier.

646

: 00:28:35

Speaker: Exactly.

647

: 00:28:35

Uh, it does.

648

: 00:28:36

And so I love the amount of thought.

649

: 00:28:40

That she's putting into this.

650

: 00:28:41

Mm-hmm.

651

: 00:28:41

And there's some excitement.

652

: 00:28:43

So, yeah.

653

: 00:28:44

You know, like you were saying,

divorce is not a failure.

654

: 00:28:47

It's gonna shoot her into a better life.

655

: 00:28:51

Speaker 3: It's a new beginning actually.

656

: 00:28:53

Yeah.

657

: 00:28:53

And, and we all make mistakes and

choices that don't work for us.

658

: 00:28:58

And I'm a huge fan and do-overs,

and I think that, you know, you

659

: 00:29:02

have to be brave, but it's worth it.

660

: 00:29:05

Speaker: Yep.

661

: 00:29:05

Yep.

662

: 00:29:06

Okay.

663

: 00:29:06

Well, Heidi, I'm looking

and the time has flown by.

664

: 00:29:09

I have, I actually feel extremely bad

that I did not get that book read.

665

: 00:29:16

Would you come back?

666

: 00:29:18

Speaker 3: Oh, I would be good.

667

: 00:29:19

This has been so fun, Lisa.

668

: 00:29:20

Speaker: It's so fun to talk to you and

I wanna just get my hands on the book,

669

: 00:29:24

get your hands on the book, and then

get you back on because there's so much.

670

: 00:29:28

Speaker 3: Awesome.

671

: 00:29:29

And write a review everybody.

672

: 00:29:32

And follow and listen to the podcast.

673

: 00:29:34

Yes,

674

: 00:29:34

Speaker: for sure, for sure.

675

: 00:29:36

So I would love to do that.

676

: 00:29:38

If you can give, that'd be so fun.

677

: 00:29:39

Maybe have you back in a month or so.

678

: 00:29:41

Sure.

679

: 00:29:41

I'll just, you can use the

same link and have you back.

680

: 00:29:44

I know the listeners would love

it 'cause it's just been fun.

681

: 00:29:46

Fun to chat.

682

: 00:29:47

I loved,

683

: 00:29:48

Speaker 3: I loved our conversation.

684

: 00:29:49

Lisa, thank you so much for having me.

685

: 00:29:50

Speaker: Thank you so much for being here.

686

: 00:29:52

You take good care.

687

: 00:29:53

Speaker 3: Talk to you soon.

688

: 00:29:55

Bye-bye.

689

: 00:29:55

Speaker: Bye-bye.