Divorce Done Right: Empathy, Boundaries, and Co-Parenting Wisdom

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Welcome listeners.

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I'm really excited that you're here

and I'm actually very excited that

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my guests have hung in with me.

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They've had some technical difficulties

and they're still smiling at me.

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I said I wanted to say

the F word, but I did.

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So, so we were having some

technical difficulties, but we

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got it worked out and we're here.

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And listeners, I'm so, so grateful

that they stuck around because it has

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been a bit since I've talked about, I.

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Co-parenting and

parenting through divorce.

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And I've got two beautiful

attorneys here with me today.

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I've got Morgan Zo and I've got

Lauren Crane all the way from New

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York City, but, but we all live

the same, you know, the same lives.

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We have the same stories

through through divorce.

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So we're gonna talk a

little bit about, you know.

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Working through things in the summer,

'cause that can get tricky with

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divorce and schedules for kids.

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We're gonna talk about that a little bit,

but before we really get into the nuts and

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bolts of helping kids through the divorce

process, I wanna get to know these.

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Beautiful human beings on the other

side of the screen a little bit better.

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And so I'm just going to let them share

their authentic story that led them to

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help people through these hard times.

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So welcome again.

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Thank you.

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I feel blessed that

you're still here smiling.

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I don't know who wants, who wants

to start with their story as

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to what led them to this work?

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Speaker 2: I'll let Lauren take it.

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Go for it.

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Speaker 3: Okay, great.

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Hi, nice to meet you, Lisa, on Zoom.

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Um, so I have been a

matrimonial lawyer for 22 years.

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I, my father was a matrimonial attorney

and when I was in law school, he

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got me my first job as a matrimonial

attorney, actually a New Jersey and.

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I thought it was exciting.

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I thought it was actually helping people.

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I thought that was nitty gritty.

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You were really helping kids.

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You were helping adults.

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It was a hard time and it was really

a way to use my law degree in a

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positive way, you know, so that people

could move forward and live still

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fruitful lives even after divorce.

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So I have been with my partner for.

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Our other partner who's been on on

the Zoom for a little over 20 years.

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Speaker: Wow.

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Speaker 3: And she trains me and

is an amazing pioneer in this.

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And she was an amazing boss

and then turned into partner.

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And so I've been doing this

mainly with her and it's been

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an incredible experience.

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And Jor and Morgan joined us in 2018.

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Yes.

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Yeah, so we've been working the three of

us as a team since: 2018

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Speaker: So I just noticed, um, you

didn't call yourself a divorce attorney.

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I.

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What's that about?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Lauren,

what is that about?

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Speaker 3: Well, one, we do

more than just divorce, right?

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Yeah.

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So we do preap and we do post

maps, and we do obviously divorce.

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That's our mean practice.

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But you know, I mean, I don't think that.

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You have to label yourself

as a divorce attorney.

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Mm-hmm.

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Right.

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I mean, I do that on a daily basis.

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If anyone asks me what I do, I

say matrimonial and then they

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have no idea what a matrimonial

attorney, and then I say divorce.

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So I get to the, the nasty later.

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But you know, I guess I just try and see

myself as not as the end of something,

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but of the start of something new.

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Yeah.

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So I always think of divorce is the end.

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Speaker: Yep.

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Yep.

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That's how I like to look at it too.

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Okay.

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Lauren, you're kind of the newbie,

but you've been there a while too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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So, um, when I went to law school and

I'm the first lawyer in my family, I went

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rogue on all of us and, and my family.

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Um, and I, as I was going

through law school, actually,

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there was big changes happening.

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Uh, gay marriage was just

about to be legalized.

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Um, and so there was this whole area that

had not really been explored and it was

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helping a whole different demographic of

people that I was really excited about.

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And that was what really

got me interested in it.

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I knew that I wanted to litigate and

I knew I wanted to be with people.

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I didn't just wanna push paper, but I

really wanted to touch people's lives.

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And I couldn't think of a better

way when people need help the most.

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'cause this is the most

chaotic moment, you know?

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We really meet people at their.

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Absolute worst.

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'cause it's emotional.

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You know, people think marriage is

a business, you know, that's what

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they try and make it seem like, oh,

it's just like a business merger.

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And then it, but it's not.

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There's kids, it's life, it's love.

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And you know, it's, um,

it keeps me on my toes.

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And so I enjoy it for that, you know?

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And I also enjoy the fact that there's no.

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Black letter law, everything

is a little bit up for gray.

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And as a lawyer, that gets my

creative juices flowing, right?

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And I get to think of ways to be, you

know, I'm not just saying, well, it

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says X, so this is what it's gonna be.

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No, there's a little nuance to it.

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No divorce is the same.

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I mean, I can't tell you how many times

Lauren and I laugh and we have a client

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come in and be like, oh, I was just

talking to so and so at Starbucks who had

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a divorce and this is exactly how it went.

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And I'm like, great.

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'cause your divorce will

go nothing like that.

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Literally everything you.

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It's just not, it just isn't that way.

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So it's,

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Speaker: yeah, it's so crazy because

I have found too, like, family

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members will start talking to me

like, well, what do I do about this?

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You know, my kids getting a

divorce and I, I have to ponder it.

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And they're like, well, you're the expert.

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You know, how do you not know this?

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It's like everyone is different.

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And I love, I so love to hear.

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The two of you talking about

helping families and about being

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creative because I am about doing

divorce different, and I'm a, I.

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I kinda say like, I'm a recovering

attorney, sorry, I'm more, I'm more of

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a mediator now and we'll call in the,

you know, call in the attorneys to

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work with, but I really love to help

people work together and craft their

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agreement and then they can go get some

representation because I can't advise

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them when I'm helping them, but, and it

is great because you can be creative.

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Through a divorce.

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I have to ask, have you any of

you personally been through any

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of this besides watching your

dad, you know, do this work?

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Have you personally been touched by it?

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Speaker 2: No.

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Not in my family.

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No.

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Speaker: Not in mine either.

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Okay.

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So that's interesting.

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Which

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Speaker 2: is shocking, honestly.

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Speaker: No.

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You wanna know what's really shocking.

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Neither have I, and I've been

married for 34 years, so Yeah.

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But you know, and I, I see, I've been

through hard things and I know how

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to get people through transitions

and you know, like my surgeon

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doesn't have to have had the surgery.

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You know what I mean?

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So I don't feel like I have to apologize.

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For not having gone through it.

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Right.

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So I think that's interesting though

because most people in this field,

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Speaker 2: I actually think that's,

I, I find when we've worked with

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colleagues who have had their own

personal divorce, sometimes they

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get back into that personal mindset.

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Yes.

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And I actually think it does their

clients a disservice because our

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job is to see outside is to be

their logical force to help them not

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think emotional, but get through it.

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Right.

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And I think sometimes people, when

they've had that experience, they go

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back to that, they revert back to that

time in their lives and then they get

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emotionally and then it's impossible.

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'cause you go to the other side, you

want a lawyer because you're like,

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I wanna be able to work this out.

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If I wanted to deal with the other

person, I, we don't need lawyers.

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Right.

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That would be.

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The opposite of this.

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So I actually think it's good for all

of us to have not done that, so we

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can come with those fresh eyes to say.

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This is how we can help

navigate this for you.

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Speaker: Absolutely.

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So that you can keep the calm so that

they're using their prodigy brains.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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That's so tricky when

they're so emotional.

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Well, okay, so let's talk a

little bit about the kiddos.

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'cause they're one of the most

important things to me and to every

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person that I know who's going

through a divorce and has children.

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They are.

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And then comes the house.

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What are they gonna do these days?

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But, um, tell me, summer gets tricky.

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So tell me what you've got going

on, what things work for you, share

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a little bit, give us some insight.

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Make me a better mediator, better at

connecting plans, and help the listeners

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figure out these tricky obstacles too.

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Speaker 3: So I always say I wish school

was 12 months out of the year because

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the transitions can occur from school to

school, which is the best for the kids.

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'cause then the parents are not

interacting between each other.

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But in the summer there's lots more

vacation, there's lots more interaction.

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Some kids go to camp.

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Some kids don't go to camp.

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They're not an as structured of a

day, and it's not the whole time.

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So people have to negotiate who's gonna

get what weeks of vacations or what

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days of vacations, and will people

accommodate a few hours here, a few

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hours there for travel arrangements.

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They also, you know.

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Maybe they don't see their spouse for

two months or their former spouse for two

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months because of school, and the kids

are always transitioning at school, and

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now all of a sudden, every week they have

to see them two or three times a week.

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And you have to explain to your client.

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You can't make every exchange

war of the roses no matter what

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is going on in your divorce,

post-divorce, or whatever is going on.

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You need to be the adult and

your kids need to be protected

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just in like any other situation.

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So you need to keep it under bay.

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Keep the exchanges minimal.

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Make them, you know, if we're working

in New York City, make them with the

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doorman in the lobby of a building.

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Make them easy for kids so it's not

confrontational and it's in public.

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Don't have it be in the front of a

house if you're in the, not in a city.

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Meet at a restaurant and

do the exchanges there.

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Make it as easy as possible so that

your kids are the most comfortable,

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and then it's easy for them to

transition from one home to the

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other home without any fighting.

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That is the most important thing,

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Speaker: right?

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And so it sounds like what's

best for the kids is to not see

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their, their parents fighting.

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So if you can transition at

home and not fight, great.

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But if you can't, then you've

gotta take those extra steps.

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I like, I like those ideas of doing it,

um, in a public place to make it easy.

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'cause it's not easy.

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Speaker 3: And I think it's

also up to the attorney.

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You have to give the parents the

idea to not do it in the home.

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The, the default is everyone thinks

that the exchanges have to be at home.

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Mm-hmm.

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Versus an attorney can say, you

know, maybe uncomfortable if

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one parent's living in the home.

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To go back to the former residents

and do the exchange there.

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Think about a neutral place.

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Your kids like a restaurant.

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You could do it in the parking

lot, and then a parent can take the

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child to breakfast, lunch, dinner,

whatever time the exchange is.

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You have to try and be creative,

make it as easy as possible so

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that it doesn't become heated.

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Speaker: Right.

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Yep.

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That's such a great idea.

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And it is different in New York than

like rural Minnesota or Wisconsin,

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but you still can, you know, figure

out those places, um, to meet.

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Okay.

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Any other tips for summer?

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Besides exchanges?

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Speaker 2: I think it goes along.

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It's not just summer.

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I think summer does breed a lot

more interaction 'cause there's

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a little bit more looseness.

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But I think that we always

advise our clients to.

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Look internally about their part of

the dynamic with their spouse, and I

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think this kind of goes, I mean this

is like what's in vogue now, but I'll

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say it like the let them theory, right?

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Which is like you can't control how

your spouse is going to communicate.

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But you can control your

response and your way that you

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contribute to the back and forth.

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And so we have a lot of conversations

with our client as things are in

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flux, whether vacation or whatever,

how to communicate with them.

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'cause that goes a really

long way in turning down.

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The animosity and the

anxiety around the exchanges.

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Not every single thing has to be a fight.

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I mean, a big thing is FaceTime, right?

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And FaceTime becomes such

an issue in our lives.

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Definitely during, uh, the summer too.

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'cause like their li their days

have changed, so the timings of

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this changes and so the other

spouse doesn't answer or FaceTime.

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We have clients that are

screenshotting sending it, doing this.

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I haven't spoken to my kid in 10 days.

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I haven't done this.

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That's not a productive

way to try to navigate.

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This issue, you know?

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So we try to give them the skillset,

which is maybe make it more structured

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if you were able to do it a little looser

during the, the weekday or whatever,

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because there was more your, the day was

different make, it has to be at this time.

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Exactly.

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And if that time doesn't work,

then the next day you'll call your

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child, and if that day doesn't

work, then we'll figure it out.

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Then you can get the lawyers involved.

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But when you're trying to

argue between each other.

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All that does is create, but then

the phone calls the tension on the

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phone, especially with young kids.

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Mm-hmm.

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You know, daddy hasn't

called you or the a child.

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We just had a client complain today

that the um, child said, daddy, how come

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you haven't called me in a couple days?

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And he would say, in the moment, I've

called you every day, and now the

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child's been involved in this, you know?

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Right.

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And that's not good.

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Speaker: Yep.

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Okay.

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Well, I have to say one thing, Morgan,

I have to say Mel Robbins would be proud

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of you from, but I have to, I have to

tell you too, I'm, I'm so impressed with

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the two of you truly, and listeners,

if you are in New York, you would be

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who I would go to because this is,

this is what is standing out to me.

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I'm also a, a coach now.

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I don't.

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I just use it in my life.

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I use it with my clients.

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But you're using coaching by, you

know, by you are helping your clients

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not to make this into a big, huge feud

and to actually help the children.

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A lot of attorneys have bad reps

and I've seen attorneys who will

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mess up a mediation deal just

because they wanna keep that.

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I'm sorry.

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I am an attorney.

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I love attorneys.

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They're need it.

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But I really love what you're doing and

I love what you're saying about this.

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You're coaching them on

how to communicate better.

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One attorney does that not

any that I know that well.

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So kudos to you.

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That's really different and I hope that

you're advertising that you are different.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we try.

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We, you know, the big thing about our

firm also, which is really special, and

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I really feel lucky every day that I get

to do this with Lauren and with Susan.

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We're a small.

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All women firm, everyone in our firm is

a woman, and we really listen to each

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other in a way that I don't think I

could have ever gotten that experience.

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Mm-hmm.

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And we argue with each other.

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It's not like, yes, men, like, you

know, in another big firm, you might be

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: 00:15:31

afraid to have an idea or try something.

323

: 00:15:34

We really believe in trying to

get the best for our client.

324

: 00:15:38

Yeah.

325

: 00:15:38

We can make another motion.

326

: 00:15:40

Yeah.

327

: 00:15:40

We can earn whatever money.

328

: 00:15:42

That's not the focus of

how we live our practice.

329

: 00:15:44

We're always trying to get the

best results, and honestly,

330

: 00:15:48

most of the time the best result

is not going through court.

331

: 00:15:51

The court system, you know,

in New York is not perfect.

332

: 00:15:56

Um, uh, it's, it's not perfect.

333

: 00:16:00

There are five judges

for all of Manhattan.

334

: 00:16:04

Which is just, you can imagine the

caseload, the timing is slow and Lauren

335

: 00:16:09

will laugh 'cause I love to litigate.

336

: 00:16:11

That's my favorite part of the job.

337

: 00:16:13

Lauren likes to mediate, but.

338

: 00:16:15

I still want, I'm still coaching them.

339

: 00:16:17

How do I get you out of this faster?

340

: 00:16:20

How do I get you with everything

that's important to you?

341

: 00:16:23

And obviously it's not gonna be

everything, but what's the most important?

342

: 00:16:26

How do we get that for you?

343

: 00:16:28

Speaker: Yeah, and I love that.

344

: 00:16:28

And you were doing that.

345

: 00:16:30

It's shining through just in

talking to you because you are

346

: 00:16:33

coaching them to set it up so that

they don't have to go to court.

347

: 00:16:38

Set up, maybe be more structured

and sometimes they're gonna have to,

348

: 00:16:42

and they've got you if they need it.

349

: 00:16:44

Okay, so we've got a couple of

of good tips here for summer.

350

: 00:16:48

The exchanges we're talking about,

the, the calls, the, the FaceTime

351

: 00:16:52

calls, the kinda let them theory,

that's always so important, right?

352

: 00:16:56

Because what people need to remember is

even if that other parent really sucks,

353

: 00:17:01

just do your best because that is going

to impact the children to have one.

354

: 00:17:07

Great parent that's going to really

help them more than one great

355

: 00:17:12

parent arguing with another parent.

356

: 00:17:14

So, um, do you have any other, it

doesn't even have to be summer tips, but

357

: 00:17:20

tips to help people co-parent better?

358

: 00:17:24

So I,

359

: 00:17:25

Speaker 3: I think that what

gets lost is divorce is the short

360

: 00:17:28

snippet of a person's life, even

if it's a two to five year process.

361

: 00:17:33

After everyone's focused on when their

kids are young or maybe they're teenagers

362

: 00:17:40

and through the divorce process, and

what they forget is, is this is the same

363

: 00:17:44

person who I'm gonna have to parent with.

364

: 00:17:47

For the of these kids' lives.

365

: 00:17:49

Even if your child is emancipated,

your kids can have issues well into

366

: 00:17:54

their thirties and forties, right?

367

: 00:17:56

You that you're still gonna be the only

parent for this person, and you have to

368

: 00:18:02

learn, even if you don't like that person

anymore, how to get along with them.

369

: 00:18:07

You're gonna have weddings, you're

gonna have babies, you're gonna have ba,

370

: 00:18:11

grand babies, baby showers, everything.

371

: 00:18:15

You have to teach your clients when

they're with you on how to treat the other

372

: 00:18:20

parent, like Morgan was saying, and how

to take it forward, go through issues that

373

: 00:18:25

they could confront, such as, what are

you gonna do when your kids get married?

374

: 00:18:31

Don't you wanna be able to sit at the

same wedding, you know, or a Sweet

375

: 00:18:35

16 party or any other big event.

376

: 00:18:39

You, you have to get your client to look

forward, so maybe they would sacrifice a

377

: 00:18:44

little bit financially to end the case.

378

: 00:18:47

What clients don't understand is that

every dollar that you may save or spend

379

: 00:18:53

during divorce, you may not actually

be saving in any settlement because

380

: 00:18:58

you're gonna get rid of attorneys and

we're expensive and settling a case.

381

: 00:19:03

It's so much more beneficial to the

person and to the children because you're

382

: 00:19:08

never getting your years back, right?

383

: 00:19:11

So if you're gonna wind up spending

five years litigating this case,

384

: 00:19:14

you're losing five years to litigation,

which is draining and has an

385

: 00:19:19

effect on everybody's personality,

and you just have to remember.

386

: 00:19:24

That if you settle, you have to

think forward thinking, maybe

387

: 00:19:28

'cause you're so angry and you're

going through this divorce, you

388

: 00:19:31

can't meet the next person, right?

389

: 00:19:33

Yeah.

390

: 00:19:34

So keep forward thinking,

stop looking back.

391

: 00:19:38

Yes.

392

: 00:19:38

When you go to trial, you

have to only look back.

393

: 00:19:40

You have to look back and prove your

evidence and so forth and so on.

394

: 00:19:43

But if you're gonna settle, think

about how you can move forward

395

: 00:19:48

best for you and your children.

396

: 00:19:50

Speaker: I love that, and I always say,

my listeners have heard this, how you end

397

: 00:19:54

one thing is how you begin another, so.

398

: 00:19:58

Work on yourself.

399

: 00:19:59

Work on yourself like nuts,

because that is what is going

400

: 00:20:03

to give you a better life.

401

: 00:20:05

It's going to figure out, get a coach,

get a therapist, get someone who can help

402

: 00:20:10

you so that you can handle that parent,

because like you said, you are connected

403

: 00:20:16

to them for the rest of your life.

404

: 00:20:19

You are and you don't want it to be

icky and you want to have a better

405

: 00:20:24

life after divorce and carrying all

that isn't really gonna get you there.

406

: 00:20:28

I have to ask you one question.

407

: 00:20:30

I'm just so curious.

408

: 00:20:31

How long does it take to

get divorced in New York?

409

: 00:20:35

Speaker 2: I.

410

: 00:20:35

That is the million dollar question.

411

: 00:20:39

Um, and honestly, it

really, really depends.

412

: 00:20:42

Um, the New York courts just

had, uh, the matrimonial part

413

: 00:20:46

just had a major overhaul.

414

: 00:20:48

We have four new judges, um, and only

one that's been there for a while.

415

: 00:20:53

And so they are picking up pieces

from other, from other judges.

416

: 00:20:57

And so things have never really.

417

: 00:21:00

Caught up from COVID.

418

: 00:21:02

I mean, it, it, it's, you know, if

you are, if you are litigating both

419

: 00:21:06

finances and custody, it could take you

even two years to even get to a trial

420

: 00:21:12

Speaker: really on custody.

421

: 00:21:14

Speaker 3: On just custody.

422

: 00:21:15

Very rarely do you do custody and

finances in New York at the same time.

423

: 00:21:20

So it could take.

424

: 00:21:21

Two years to get to a custody

trial and then another two to

425

: 00:21:24

three to get to a financial trial.

426

: 00:21:26

Speaker 2: And that's in Manhattan.

427

: 00:21:27

Some courts do.

428

: 00:21:28

Westchester has done, we, we just

did one in Westchester where they

429

: 00:21:31

did it, but the, at part of it, we

weren't getting full trial days.

430

: 00:21:36

So we would get, we, we would be

scheduled for a full trial day.

431

: 00:21:40

We would sit there for a trial

day, but we'd be kept getting

432

: 00:21:43

pulled out for other cases.

433

: 00:21:45

So we would get maybe an hour in the

morning, maybe two, and then have to

434

: 00:21:49

keep doing that until the trial was done.

435

: 00:21:51

Um, so.

436

: 00:21:53

It's, it, it's a really

unfortunately long process.

437

: 00:21:56

Speaker: Okay.

438

: 00:21:56

So, and I'm, so, this isn't like people

around me don't have that issue, but

439

: 00:22:00

for those poor, you know, residents

in New York, they're kind of in limbo.

440

: 00:22:06

I mean, how, like it is hard to be

in the midst of a divorce and trying

441

: 00:22:11

to figure out how you're gonna pay

for, so what do people do if it's

442

: 00:22:16

two years that they're sitting there?

443

: 00:22:19

Speaker 2: So they'll, there'll be

what we call in your pendente decision.

444

: 00:22:23

So temporary during the pendency

of the action decisions.

445

: 00:22:26

But, so if you are the recipient, if

you're the money spouse and you're

446

: 00:22:29

the recipient of a very expensive

award, and you don't think that that

447

: 00:22:34

award is the right award, because

the court can consider differ

448

: 00:22:38

factors during the pendency and then

has to consider different factors

449

: 00:22:41

when they decide the final award.

450

: 00:22:44

Okay?

451

: 00:22:44

Uh, you are stuck with that award.

452

: 00:22:48

Until you get to a trial, even if

you're the non-money spouse and

453

: 00:22:51

you're not happy with it, it's

really hard to modify something.

454

: 00:22:54

So you might get a decision on

that interim amount in the, in the

455

: 00:22:58

first six months, but then that's

what's carrying you forward for the,

456

: 00:23:02

until the divorce, until the trial.

457

: 00:23:05

Yeah.

458

: 00:23:06

Speaker: Wow.

459

: 00:23:06

That's tricky.

460

: 00:23:08

Speaker 2: So like what makes it even

more difficult for us to resolve cases

461

: 00:23:11

is like if the award is really, really

generous and everyone knows it's really,

462

: 00:23:15

really generous, it's really hard to

walk it back and, and the person's just

463

: 00:23:20

sitting there taking that even though

they have counsel fees, even though

464

: 00:23:23

they know other things are happening.

465

: 00:23:25

But you can't say, okay, but we

know the court's not gonna do that.

466

: 00:23:29

So like, let's walk, let's try to

come to the table and figure it out.

467

: 00:23:32

And it's hard when you

have those types of awards.

468

: 00:23:35

Um, in New York also the, there's

a rebuttable presumption that the

469

: 00:23:40

money spouse, the contributes to

the non-money spouse counsel fees.

470

: 00:23:44

Um, and so those, so sometimes the

non-money spouse doesn't have an

471

: 00:23:50

incentive to end the divorce because

they're not paying their own legal fees.

472

: 00:23:54

So, you know, that old fashioned

having skin in the game, which

473

: 00:23:57

everyone really needs to come and be

honest and fair is not always there.

474

: 00:24:01

So we have some challenges.

475

: 00:24:04

Yeah.

476

: 00:24:05

You know, to get it

477

: 00:24:06

Speaker 3: done.

478

: 00:24:07

I'm gonna give you the flip side though,

because we've also had cases where our

479

: 00:24:11

client is the non moneyed spouse and

they're not getting sufficient money

480

: 00:24:15

and support, and then they are forced.

481

: 00:24:18

Right, because it's not changing.

482

: 00:24:20

And if you're on this road and you

have no access to investment accounts

483

: 00:24:25

or the cash, you know, that's in one

person's name or it's in joint names

484

: 00:24:30

and the banks, you know, won't liquidate

those funds due to an ongoing divorce

485

: 00:24:34

proceeding, they could be crunched

and have to settle for less than they.

486

: 00:24:40

Deserved in saying, because they

just have to finish this to be

487

: 00:24:44

able to move on with their lives.

488

: 00:24:47

So the problem with a long, and

also it'll take a long time to

489

: 00:24:52

get to a custody award, right?

490

: 00:24:55

So these people are fighting over

custody, could be two to three

491

: 00:24:59

years before you get, that's

492

: 00:25:00

Speaker: crazy.

493

: 00:25:01

I mean, how, how do those

families, how do they survive

494

: 00:25:05

on the temporary, they're just.

495

: 00:25:08

Speaker 3: They just go, there's

nothing we can, there's literally

496

: 00:25:13

you can't, speedy trial is your best.

497

: 00:25:18

That's what the Appell division says.

498

: 00:25:21

Speaker: Are you, are the two of you doing

a lot of mediations to help people come to

499

: 00:25:29

a, you know, like a kind of col like in,

in Minnesota, I'm not part of it anymore.

500

: 00:25:34

They have like collaborative

law, which some people.

501

: 00:25:37

There's good and there's

the good and the bad.

502

: 00:25:39

A lot of them are my friends,

so I'm not gonna say,

503

: 00:25:42

but um, you know, I'm just

thinking in your case.

504

: 00:25:46

Where the courts are so full, it

would really be a ripe place to have

505

: 00:25:52

someone help them come to an agreement.

506

: 00:25:56

You know, if they're each

represented by an attorney.

507

: 00:25:58

Do you do that?

508

: 00:25:59

Speaker 3: So I'm actually a trans

mediator and I am court appointed sometime

509

: 00:26:03

as a mediator, and I love mediation.

510

: 00:26:06

I like being the mediator.

511

: 00:26:08

The problem is it takes so

long for parties a lot of

512

: 00:26:12

times to get to mediation.

513

: 00:26:13

They're at that point, you know, to,

they've had litigation fatigue, so

514

: 00:26:18

sometimes they know too much and they're

too tired to actually really engage.

515

: 00:26:23

So I prefer to get the case in

mediation right from the get go.

516

: 00:26:28

Amen.

517

: 00:26:28

It's very

518

: 00:26:29

Speaker: easy.

519

: 00:26:29

Amen.

520

: 00:26:30

In fact, I stopped taking.

521

: 00:26:33

People who have gone through and

are court appointed, I can't do it.

522

: 00:26:36

I used to volunteer.

523

: 00:26:37

I'm like, I can't do it anymore.

524

: 00:26:39

It's so hard, um, to work

with them after all of that.

525

: 00:26:44

But when they come to me right from

the beginning, oh, magic can happen.

526

: 00:26:50

Not always.

527

: 00:26:51

Sometimes.

528

: 00:26:52

Sometimes you gotta like, okay,

you need to be represented

529

: 00:26:56

and this isn't gonna work.

530

: 00:26:58

But a lot of times it can work and it

sounds like New York could use that.

531

: 00:27:03

Speaker 2: It exists here.

532

: 00:27:04

And I think what we always try to

do is we always work on two tracks.

533

: 00:27:08

Like even if they come into us and they're

not in the me, the mindset to settle right

534

: 00:27:12

away, we're like, let's just talk to us

what a settlement would look like for you.

535

: 00:27:16

So as we're getting to know the

client, as we're getting the discovery

536

: 00:27:19

that we need, we're starting to put

together something for them to look at.

537

: 00:27:23

It is often our.

538

: 00:27:25

Initiative to then say, Hey,

what do you think about maybe

539

: 00:27:28

throwing this out as a proposal?

540

: 00:27:30

Like we will start that even if the

court proceeding is going, we're

541

: 00:27:33

always trying to say, Hey, why don't

we take a look at what's happening

542

: 00:27:37

now You, you wanted the court.

543

: 00:27:39

You see how the court goes like, yeah,

now maybe, why don't we look at this?

544

: 00:27:44

You know, why don't we think about this?

545

: 00:27:46

And we are often, you know.

546

: 00:27:48

I, I would say, and I would say this is

probably true for our field in a whole,

547

: 00:27:52

like I think a lot of cases get to a

trial stage and then we'll settle it

548

: 00:27:57

before our trial's really complete, right?

549

: 00:27:59

Say that's just the

reality of where we live.

550

: 00:28:02

Speaker: I, I, and again, I can't

say this enough, I love how the two

551

: 00:28:07

of you, you're kind of mediating.

552

: 00:28:09

You want them to negotiate that you

are the kind of attorneys that I like

553

: 00:28:14

to find because you are the ones that

don't blow it up and go, well, you

554

: 00:28:19

know, 'cause I tell 'em, I know the law.

555

: 00:28:21

I tell them, you, you go to an

attorney, you could fight for this.

556

: 00:28:25

And I'll tell both of 'em.

557

: 00:28:26

You could get this, but let's

you know, how do you wanna do it?

558

: 00:28:30

What works the.

559

: 00:28:32

Speaker 3: I also say in mediation

always, so if you want an additional

560

: 00:28:36

$50,000, how much are you gonna

pay your attorney to give you that?

561

: 00:28:41

Speaker: Yep.

562

: 00:28:42

Speaker 3: And you always, and I say

that to my clients as well, right?

563

: 00:28:45

How much do you want to pay

me to get to that end goal?

564

: 00:28:51

So I think it's a really important

question that attorneys always

565

: 00:28:55

have to remind their clients,

because clients sometimes forget

566

: 00:28:59

that attorney's fees are real.

567

: 00:29:01

They're a real factor when

determining whether to settle.

568

: 00:29:05

And you know, we're in New York City,

attorney's fees are very expensive and.

569

: 00:29:11

It could be a real asset.

570

: 00:29:13

You know, you may give up something,

but you don't have to see me anymore.

571

: 00:29:18

Speaker: Yeah, you are, you are.

572

: 00:29:19

Your firm is a diamond in the rough.

573

: 00:29:21

I'm not kidding.

574

: 00:29:22

Like I never, I didn't anticipate

this when talking with you.

575

: 00:29:25

I love it.

576

: 00:29:26

I mean, I would, I would practice law

in New York with you because I love

577

: 00:29:30

what you're doing and I, listeners, I

hope that you do hear this and go there.

578

: 00:29:35

Tell me, are there a lot of

colleagues like you in New York?

579

: 00:29:40

Speaker 2: Y you know, it's an

unfortunate field that we practice in

580

: 00:29:45

and you know, there are some wonderful

people who are on the same page.

581

: 00:29:50

We are like, we can fight like hell,

like we have to, but know when it is

582

: 00:29:54

time to get these people to a resolution,

help this family really see that.

583

: 00:29:59

But then there's also the people

who, you know, almost are, feel like

584

: 00:30:04

they're in their own divorce, you know?

585

: 00:30:06

And amp it even more than it needs to be.

586

: 00:30:09

And every email communication

is nasty and every interaction

587

: 00:30:14

is is, you know, not pleasant.

588

: 00:30:16

And it's unfortunate because, you know,

we're technically on the same team in

589

: 00:30:21

that like, we gotta get this family from.

590

: 00:30:23

Point A to point B, they

wanna be in point B, right?

591

: 00:30:26

Maybe it looks a little different,

but they wanna be there, so

592

: 00:30:28

how do we get them there?

593

: 00:30:30

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

594

: 00:30:31

Speaker 2: And you know, it's, it's, it's,

um, I don't know if it's just the nature

595

: 00:30:35

of what we do, that that brings that

out in people, but that's the reality.

596

: 00:30:40

Speaker: I love it.

597

: 00:30:40

And, and I wanna say too, I

totally agree with you that

598

: 00:30:44

sometimes there is a time to fight.

599

: 00:30:46

There are, there are those cases

where, yep, you're gonna, there's

600

: 00:30:49

nothing else that you can do but fight.

601

: 00:30:52

Overall, I find, especially if you

have two willing participants Yeah.

602

: 00:31:00

Who don't, you know, and you keep, and

I, I love what you're talking about.

603

: 00:31:04

I love what you stand for.

604

: 00:31:05

I wanna scream it from

the rooftops of New York.

605

: 00:31:08

So that people know what you're doing

because it's pretty amazing and I

606

: 00:31:13

love it, and my heart goes out to you

and I'm, I feel even more blessed to

607

: 00:31:17

have spoken with both of you today.

608

: 00:31:19

I so appreciate you joining

me on Zoom, which is weird and

609

: 00:31:23

different because went down on me.

610

: 00:31:26

I'm not sure what happened there,

but I, I really appreciate you.

611

: 00:31:29

I appreciate what you're doing.

612

: 00:31:32

We're gonna have your information in

the show notes, but I wanna know how do

613

: 00:31:36

people find you if they need some help?

614

: 00:31:39

Speaker 3: So the name of the

firm is Bender and Crane, and our

615

: 00:31:42

website is bender and cream.com.

616

: 00:31:44

Bender crane.com.

617

: 00:31:45

There's no ampersand.

618

: 00:31:46

Um.

619

: 00:31:48

And we're both, uh, members of

the American Academy and we're

620

: 00:31:52

both, uh, matrimonial lawyers

and we're both on super lawyers.

621

: 00:31:56

So you can find us very many ways.

622

: 00:31:58

You can Google us.

623

: 00:31:59

I'm sure we both come up.

624

: 00:32:00

Morgan may be a little more of a

easier find based on our last name.

625

: 00:32:06

There's lots of Lauren Cranes

I've learned since I got married.

626

: 00:32:09

20 years, you know.

627

: 00:32:13

There's, you can find us.

628

: 00:32:15

We're everywhere.

629

: 00:32:16

Speaker: Yep.

630

: 00:32:16

And you can, you can get in

touch with me and like I said,

631

: 00:32:19

it will be in the show notes.

632

: 00:32:20

So listeners, if you're in New York

City, go, if you are listening to

633

: 00:32:26

this, there've been great tips.

634

: 00:32:28

You can do this a better way, you

can help your children through this.

635

: 00:32:32

And I'm talking to attorneys,

I'm talking to mediators, and I'm

636

: 00:32:35

talking to people going through it.

637

: 00:32:37

So I so appreciate you too.

638

: 00:32:39

Thank you so much for being here.

639

: 00:32:41

Speaker 3: Lisa, thank

640

: 00:32:44

Speaker: Awesome.

641

: 00:32:45

Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

642

: 00:32:46

You too.