How to Divorce Smarter: Avoid Court, Save Money & Protect Your Peace

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Welcome listeners.

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I'm really happy that you're here today.

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I have a guest that is a new friend that

I'm getting to know, which is really fun.

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Um, I have John Inger.

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Did I say that right, John?

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Speaker 2: Perfect.

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100%.

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Perfect.

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Speaker: Awesome.

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That's so good to know 'cause I

often, you know, can those up?

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But John is here.

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He is an attorney.

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John, you're in New

Jersey, is that correct?

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Okay, so he is the New Jersey attorney.

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I'm out here in the Midwest,

so we like to talk to you big

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city folks once in a while.

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So this is gonna be fun.

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And what I love about what John is

doing is I feel like you are kind

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of doing what I am doing, maybe

with a little bit more of a focus

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on men because you're an attorney.

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You're a mediator and you've got, I

think, what are you, is your handle or

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your website called Divorce Smarter?

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Speaker 2: Is that It's GI Hap

Get Happy Divorce is, uh, GI

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the handle for the law firm?

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Yeah.

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And then Men's Divorce Network is

for my men's divorce, uh, group.

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Speaker: Okay.

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We are going to have that all in

the show notes so we can talk about

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it, but I'm, I'm excited to get.

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Insight from you, kind of from a

different point of view and I bet

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we're doing a lot similarly as well.

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So John, thank you for taking the time.

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I know you're busy and I'm glad that

you're here, so I appreciate that so much.

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And would you mind just sharing

with the audience, we always like

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to kinda get to know our guests,

like what led you to do this work?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know,

divorce really chose me.

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I didn't choose it.

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Uh, after law school I worked for a

family part judge and just sort of,

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uh, got stuck in family law is not

what I, not what I originally intended.

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But, um, in doing this for more than

20 years, I like to say that I have

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now divorced the divorce industry.

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And yes, the irony is not lost

on me in that saying that, um.

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So over this time period, I've just

watched one too many good families get

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financially and emotionally wrecked,

um, by the system that I think is

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designed to profit from their pain.

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I really feel that way and, uh, you

know, we've, you've probably seen this

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before, people spending, you know,

tens of thousands of dollars to fight

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over, you know, furniture from IKEA

and things that they could just go out

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and buy instead of paying attorneys.

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So.

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In choosing this, I, I chose, when I

started doing family law, um, you know,

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I chose it as a litigating attorney,

you know, going to court, arguing,

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doing all those things, but then seeing

all these outcomes year after year

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that we could have reached at the very

beginning after spending all this money.

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You know, it's the whole adage, you,

you can either send your own child

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through college or you can send your

attorney's child through college.

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Yeah.

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And it's very true.

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So I did traditional media, uh,

litigation for many, many years.

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And then I co-founded Net Squire,

which is a New Jersey law firm

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that's built around flat fees.

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Predictable timelines and um,

basically this radical idea that

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divorce doesn't have to be a war.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: It's only a

war if you let it be.

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So, um, you know, we we're really

trying to help families resolve

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everything in like, you know, eight to

12 weeks as opposed to 12 to 18 months.

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Mm-hmm.

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Which is what most sides sort of do.

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And, um, you know, here's the thing.

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I've seen both sides

of this whole process.

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Um, as an attorney.

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I just gave you a little

bit of background, but also.

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I adopted my daughter during

my first marriage, so I've gone

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through the entire adoption process.

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I went through my own divorce,

and then I found love again

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and remarried with a prenup.

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So I've sort of experienced

every bit of, you know, family

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formation, dissolution, everything.

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From my own perspective, and

lemme tell you something.

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When it came time for my own

divorce, I practiced what I preached.

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Uh, we didn't have attorneys.

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There was no drama.

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We were done in a matter of

months because, you know, if you

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don't try to destroy each other,

things can move pretty quickly.

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And I think people need to.

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Start to realize that it

doesn't have to be a war.

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And, uh, I'm really excited to

talk to you today about that.

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Speaker: Okay.

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I love so many things that you just said.

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Um, and what I do want you to know,

I know what you're saying, and I have

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seen, I have been in the courtroom

and done a mediation agreement.

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Where the, the couple agrees and the

attorney gets the fight on, and I know why

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he's doing that because he wants the fight

on because he wants to earn more money.

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But I also want you to know, John,

that I am meeting so many attorneys.

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That are starting to talk, like you and

I are talking about doing this together.

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Even some really great attorneys

in New York City, they talk

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about trying to help the family.

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So maybe there's a wave that we've

started and, and maybe it's building,

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um, because I am seeing, and it, I mean

obviously it could be what I'm doing,

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you know, I do divorce different, but

all the things that you talk about, I

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so agree with, and I did not realize

that you also do it on the flat fee.

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So do I because there's no reason not to.

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There's no reason for me, as long as I

have two willing participants who want

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to work together through the mediation

process, I can do that on a flat fee.

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Sounds like you're doing the same thing.

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I thought I was the only

one doing it really well.

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There's not a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: Well, I will tell you, um,

the flat fee is something that every

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attorney in New Jersey looks at me like.

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I have three heads whenever I tell

them about it, but we actually

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have several, we do mediation,

uh, flat fees too, but we also do.

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Flat fees for people that

already know what they want.

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They already have sort of an agreement.

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Maybe they just need a couple

like details filled in.

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Okay.

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And our flat fees are beginning to

end, so like mediation, and I know

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some mediators don't agree with me

on this, but we'll do the mediation.

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We'll draft their agreement, we'll

tell them, go have an attorney,

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review it before you sign it.

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They almost never do.

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And then once they sign it, we, we

actually do the divorce for them too.

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So the flat fee is like beginning to

end soup to nuts, one price, right?

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You don't have to worry about

any other costs that you would

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ever incur to get divorced.

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Speaker: So I.

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I am very similar and I know what

you're saying about, about some

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people not agreeing and I do.

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Um, and they do.

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There's attorneys.

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I love it when they work with attorneys

who get what I'm doing, not attorneys

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that go and go, well, you, you know,

of course they're going to advise

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you on everything you can get, and I.

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Let the people know that.

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But it is too, I have a lot of

people, I don't file it for them

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because I don't, um, represent either

of them here in the, in Minnesota.

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Um.

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I can help them.

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I can give them information,

legal information.

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I can help them craft, I can give

them all the divorce paperwork.

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We do it together.

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We do it together as we're like on the

computer, and then there if they want

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an attorney to file it for the, some

of them take it and file it themselves.

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So it sounds pretty similar.

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I might be a little small.

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I'm kind of a one woman shop over

here with people I consult with.

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But it sounds like we're doing

the same thing, and I think it's

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a great way to do it, especially

when there are kids involved.

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I love to hear that you

have been through this.

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I think that's important.

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I think I used to apologize because

I've been in a 34 year marriage.

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I have never seen divorce, and I

stopped apologizing not that long

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ago because I have been through hard

things and I realized like the surgeon.

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That did the work on me didn't necessarily

have to go through what I went through.

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It's kind of getting through hard times.

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It's communicating, it's knowing

the law so people don't draft a

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plan that doesn't make any sense.

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Right.

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Um, and I adopted my baby.

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I have had two children

and we adopted our baby.

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So we're very, we got a lot in common.

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John,

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Speaker 2: that sound it sounds like

it, it, it's really interesting.

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I mean, one thing I don't.

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Always like is when you know

an attorney or somebody like.

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You know, always refers back to themself

when they're trying to talk about somebody

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else's problems because you know, that

person wants their problem solved.

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They're not always interested in

hearing, uh, about your problems.

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But I think if you can weave it into

the way that you, um, do mediation,

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the way you represent people, you

can weave in that you can, you can

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personally understand what they're

going through, and it can make, make

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you empathize a little bit more.

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That's always a good thing.

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Yeah.

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Um, I will tell you, it, it's

family law is very dynamic.

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You know, we always talk about

just divorce, but you know, you

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know, there's custody, there's

adoption, there's all kinds of,

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uh, things that are go, go into it.

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And what's really interesting,

not only everything I just

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told you, but I'm also gay.

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So I, um, when I say I got divorced.

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I, you know, I was in a

relationship for a while, then I

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got married, then I got divorced.

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So it's like I've literally

personally lived through like all

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these strange dynamics that mm-hmm.

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Um, that can be, that can

come up in family law cases.

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But what's interesting is in looking at

it, the way I take my personal story and

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I talk to clients is I'm saying, listen.

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I own, I own a law firm.

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I own another business.

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Um, I adopted a child, uh, my ex spouse

and I had a very, very bad breakup.

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But be beside all of that, we

still resolved everything without

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getting attorneys involved because

we're too educated people that

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could sit down and just figure

out what's best for our daughter

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and financially what was best and.

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I always like to say in our, like,

the circumstances of our breakup

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were, you know, they were difficult,

but even that said, there's no,

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there's no situation, there's no case.

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I dunno if you agree with this, but

there's no case that cannot sit down

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at the very beginning and resolve

all, or maybe most of the issues by

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just having a collective mindset.

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That's what we're going to do

and put the emotions aside.

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And I really feel like that's where

I tried to flex my story a little bit

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to people is just to say, listen, I,

I own businesses that, that normally

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people fight for years about, you

know, get a forensic accountant

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involved in all this other nonsense

and we were able to resolve it.

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So don't tell me that.

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The two of you who are W2 employees

that have two kids you both love, can't

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sit down and just figure this out.

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Speaker: Right.

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Okay.

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I will say I agree with you 80% of the

time, but I do feel like when there are

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cases where maybe like abuse, right?

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Or if one person feels like.

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Maybe they're afraid to speak

what they, you know what I mean?

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Right.

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So those are cases where you probably

need the attorneys, or if someone's a big

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asshole like a narcissist, I don't know.

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You know, maybe you need,

you know what I'm saying?

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So I think there are sometimes,

but I would say the big majority,

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as long as you both agree.

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That you wanna work together

and that you don't wanna go

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through court, you can do it.

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I can help you, I can help you do that.

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You can help people do that.

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Um, and it is sitting down

together and working through it.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely there are, I,

when I, when I said that it's really

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the cases that are candidates for

mediation, I don't think if there's

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domestic violence or severe, confidential.

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Right.

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I, I knew that you

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Speaker: meant that.

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Speaker 2: Like, I mean, I mean I do

think that even in those situations,

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mediation's a helpful tool, but in

those situations you need an advocate in

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most circumstances to, to get forward.

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Uh, to move forward.

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But really in those circumstances.

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Substitute mediation for hiring attorneys

that try pre court intervention, and

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the attorneys are trying to come up

with a alternative dispute process

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without anyone filing in court.

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So there's more than one way to sort

of do this and to sort of resolve

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everything before you enter the system.

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And I don't know how the system is in

Minnesota, but in New Jersey, and I have

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several good friends who are judges.

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So I say this knowing good

people who are judges.

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The system is so broken in our state that.

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People cannot rely upon it anymore.

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They cannot rely upon

the judges themselves.

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The law of judges come in having done

real estate or government jobs and have

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no idea about family dynamics and the

law, and then they're so overworked

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that people are waiting months and

months and years just to get a decision.

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On something.

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So I think that's part of what you

were talking about earlier about the

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New York attorneys that you, uh, yes.

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Had on your podcast who I actually

listened to that podcast earlier today.

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Um, and I, they, they were great.

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And I, what I love is we all

know how broken the system is.

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Mm-hmm.

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And so we either can be honest

with our clients and say, listen.

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We can air the court system.

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We can go in and fight the good fight,

but here is what's likely to happen

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both in time and cost and outcome or.

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Here's this other process, and if we're

just more honest with them upfront,

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most people, if they're being honest

with themselves, will choose a different

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process, whether that's mediation at

the beginning, whether that's four

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way conferences, whether that's direct

negotiation between at to attorneys.

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It doesn't matter what it is,

it's just stay outta court.

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There's really no reason to go to court.

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Um, you know, unless you're, unless

one party just wants to fight.

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Right.

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Whether they're a narcissist or

just an asshole, whatever, it's

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Speaker: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Like if they just wanna

fight, then they wanna fight and

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there's nothing you can do about it.

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Speaker: Right.

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Okay.

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I'm glad that you brought that up.

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'cause that was going through my head in

Minnesota, it's not that broken and it

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does happen a lot quicker, you know, than

it does in, in New Jersey and New York.

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Um, but still, I still think

it's a better way, but.

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Especially where you are.

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I can't imagine.

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I mean, they were telling me the attorneys

from New York that it can take two years.

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I mean, my, I could, sometimes it takes

two weeks out here in the rural areas.

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Really, I mean.

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It's much faster.

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So even more of a push to get it settled

before, I think it's always better

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to settle it before and, and like you

were saying too, you can be represented

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by an attorney and go to mediation.

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So you know, if you do

have that fight, um.

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I'm, I'm in total agreement

with you there, so, okay.

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I wanna ask you, I wanna get some

information from you, from your

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perspective, from a different perspective.

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'cause I interview a lot of women on this.

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Did I see, did you talk about

narcissists ever, did you ever

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talk about narcissists at all?

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You know, that was a big, big, uh,

talking point a while back, and

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I don't know if I saw something

that you put on Instagram about.

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Go for it.

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I wanna hear.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I actually,

I have a podcast get divorced

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without getting screwed.

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And we, I've interviewed a lot of

people about narcissism, um, and the

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reason it's become so interesting for

me, spent over 20 years of doing this.

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I feel like half of the female

clients come into my office and

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tell me that their husbands are

narcissists big and over half the male.

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Yeah.

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And all the, and half the male clients

come in and tell me that their wives are

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bipolar or some other variation of that.

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Speaker 3: Um,

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Speaker 2: although it's interesting, more

guys are starting to use narcissistic.

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Yeah, agree.

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Agree.

314

: 00:15:53

This is a type terminology now.

315

: 00:15:54

I agree.

316

: 00:15:54

Which is really interesting

to me and I'm like.

317

: 00:15:57

N everyone's not a narcissist.

318

: 00:15:58

Okay.

319

: 00:15:58

There is such thing as someone

who's just an asshole like that.

320

: 00:16:01

Like there's like, narcissism is an

actual, like, medical term, right?

321

: 00:16:06

Right.

322

: 00:16:06

So, um, but what's interesting about

it is I get calls all the time, can

323

: 00:16:12

you handle someone who's a narcissist?

324

: 00:16:14

Can you ha, and I'm like.

325

: 00:16:16

Yes, I can handle, I mean, I've done, I've

done like over: 2000

326

: 00:16:22

I'm like, dynamics are the same.

327

: 00:16:25

Um, it's really, I mean, yes.

328

: 00:16:27

Could it be harder, um, do you have to

deal with them a little bit differently?

329

: 00:16:31

Sure.

330

: 00:16:32

But you know, I feel

like everyone comes into.

331

: 00:16:35

Divorce with this preconceived notion

of how their spouse is gonna be.

332

: 00:16:39

You know, like you,

you've heard it before.

333

: 00:16:42

Oh, he's gonna charm you.

334

: 00:16:43

You're, you're just gonna feel

he's so charmed and you're not even

335

: 00:16:46

gonna see how bad of a person he is.

336

: 00:16:48

I'm like, okay, you're getting divorced.

337

: 00:16:50

It doesn't matter.

338

: 00:16:51

Right.

339

: 00:16:52

Speaker 3: I mean, if

340

: 00:16:52

Speaker 2: there's no children

involved, it really doesn't matter.

341

: 00:16:55

Mm-hmm.

342

: 00:16:55

We're talking about money, we're

talking about dividing money.

343

: 00:16:57

Mm-hmm.

344

: 00:16:58

If there's children involved.

345

: 00:17:00

You know, it, maybe it comes into play,

but then it becomes about them being a

346

: 00:17:03

parent, not a spouse or, or a partner.

347

: 00:17:07

So I, I, I find it interesting.

348

: 00:17:09

I, I was just talking to someone the

other day about the fact that I don't

349

: 00:17:13

know that I can do another episode about

narcissism, because I feel like it really,

350

: 00:17:17

I feel like I've, I've talked so much

about it with people, Uhhuh, I don't

351

: 00:17:21

know what, where else there is to go.

352

: 00:17:23

It's, um, and it, it always

comes from the same place.

353

: 00:17:26

Uh, the people that are, um, advocates.

354

: 00:17:29

You know, of protecting each other

from narcissism, usually divorce

355

: 00:17:34

someone who is a narcissist and they

sort of see it through those lenses.

356

: 00:17:37

Uh, but I feel like you've gotta come

into a divorce trying to figure out how

357

: 00:17:43

to compartmentalize your emotion about

the breakup of your marriage, and really

358

: 00:17:48

try to look at the process more as like.

359

: 00:17:52

A business transaction, which

I know sounds really bad, but

360

: 00:17:55

I tell people all the time, I'm

like, think about buying a car.

361

: 00:17:58

Yes, you're gonna negotiate.

362

: 00:17:59

Yes, there's gonna be lots of

stress, stressful circumstances, but.

363

: 00:18:04

If you can take the emotion out of it

and make it less about what's wrong with

364

: 00:18:08

them and why you are getting divorced

and you can really make it more about

365

: 00:18:13

the forward-looking like, listen, I

have to get through this so I can move

366

: 00:18:17

on to the next chapter of my life.

367

: 00:18:18

The easier divorce is gonna

become a divorce sucks.

368

: 00:18:21

I mean, no one wants to

go through a divorce.

369

: 00:18:22

Yeah, divorce sucks.

370

: 00:18:24

But you have to start to do that.

371

: 00:18:25

And that's, that's.

372

: 00:18:27

Part of the problem I have with, um, my

male coaching clients that I deal with is

373

: 00:18:31

a lot of them, uh, come to me blindsided.

374

: 00:18:36

I'm using quotation

marks for the listener.

375

: 00:18:38

Mm-hmm.

376

: 00:18:38

Uh, blindsided by the fact that their

wives wanted a divorce because they

377

: 00:18:42

had no idea their marriage was bad.

378

: 00:18:43

And I, and I'm, I'm generalizing, but most

of them have that exact same philosophy.

379

: 00:18:50

Yes.

380

: 00:18:50

And so those people, those men.

381

: 00:18:54

They can't really honestly have a

discussion about settling their divorce

382

: 00:18:59

until they've come to terms with

the fact they're getting divorced.

383

: 00:19:01

Right?

384

: 00:19:02

And so it, it all goes back to divorces

that take the longest and are the most

385

: 00:19:08

contentious are almost always because

one or both of the people cannot allow

386

: 00:19:15

the emotion of the circumstances,

of the breakdown of their marriage

387

: 00:19:18

to even subside for a moment so

that they can think about this more.

388

: 00:19:23

Logically and more forward looking.

389

: 00:19:25

It's all about what happened in

the past and grievance based.

390

: 00:19:29

Speaker: Okay.

391

: 00:19:30

I wanna dig into this a little bit

more because you're speaking my

392

: 00:19:33

language, because I am also a coach

and I, you just don't, you just

393

: 00:19:37

kind of use it always in your life.

394

: 00:19:38

Right?

395

: 00:19:39

And I know what you're saying because

when I am, it's always emotional.

396

: 00:19:45

You're not using your prodigy brain,

you're not making good decisions when

397

: 00:19:49

you're super freaked out and emotional

and nervous or sad or whatever it is.

398

: 00:19:54

And it's really, really

hard to coach people.

399

: 00:19:58

So if there are people listening

right now who are feeling, you

400

: 00:20:04

know, like, you know, like so many

times I know it's stupid, almost.

401

: 00:20:07

Like I know that I don't

wanna feel that way.

402

: 00:20:11

Um.

403

: 00:20:13

I know and I can even like go

through how do I wanna feel?

404

: 00:20:16

I can coach myself, but sometimes the

circumstances, even though we're all in

405

: 00:20:22

charge of how we respond to them, right?

406

: 00:20:26

It's really hard for

people to overcome that.

407

: 00:20:29

And I know there's tools like you

can do, you know, little deep breath.

408

: 00:20:34

I mean, I have actually done that.

409

: 00:20:36

In the middle of a mediation.

410

: 00:20:37

Everybody just sit quietly for a sec.

411

: 00:20:39

I mean, because it's like we

gotta somehow get back here.

412

: 00:20:43

Um, what, what do you do, what

do you tell your clients who

413

: 00:20:48

are really wrapped up in this?

414

: 00:20:49

And I just wanna say, I love what

you said too about men feeling like

415

: 00:20:54

they're blindsided, even though maybe

the woman would have a different story.

416

: 00:20:59

Like how could he think

this was good, but also.

417

: 00:21:03

She's gotta give him time.

418

: 00:21:04

She's been thinking

about this for a while.

419

: 00:21:08

He's just trying to chew on it now.

420

: 00:21:10

So I've seen that as well.

421

: 00:21:11

So I had to throw that in.

422

: 00:21:14

But I wanna get your take on how

you, how you coach, how you coach

423

: 00:21:18

them to, so, because it's easy to

say, get the emotion out, right?

424

: 00:21:22

It's hard to do it.

425

: 00:21:24

Speaker 2: Oh, it's very hard to do it.

426

: 00:21:26

I mean, the first thing is, is

understanding that it, that's you.

427

: 00:21:29

That if you are feeling this intense

emotion that you can't even look

428

: 00:21:34

at your spouse without, you know,

steam coming out of your ears if

429

: 00:21:38

you just cannot even deal with it.

430

: 00:21:40

That's probably the first sign

that you need a coach to begin

431

: 00:21:43

with, is that you need, right.

432

: 00:21:45

I mean, that's the first sign.

433

: 00:21:46

Yeah.

434

: 00:21:46

Is that if you, if, if you feel like

you're just telling your divorce

435

: 00:21:50

attorney the same story again, what,

whatever it is, how they were this

436

: 00:21:55

horrible person, or how they cheated

on you, or whatever the story is.

437

: 00:21:59

If you feel yourself telling the

same story to your divorce attorney

438

: 00:22:02

over and over again, first sign

that you need somebody else to get

439

: 00:22:06

involved, that's not an attorney

who's not billing you, whatever it is.

440

: 00:22:09

Right?

441

: 00:22:09

$400 an hour.

442

: 00:22:11

Um, and you need a coach is a great thing

because a coach, there's therapy too.

443

: 00:22:17

Meet therapists, I think a lot of people

would also benefit from a therapist, but

444

: 00:22:20

they're really for different purposes.

445

: 00:22:21

Mm-hmm.

446

: 00:22:22

A, the coach is there to say.

447

: 00:22:25

Okay, here's where you are.

448

: 00:22:27

We have to get you through this.

449

: 00:22:29

We have to figure out a way for you

to focus on something that's not.

450

: 00:22:33

What just happened to you and with

me, I always, I always just try to get

451

: 00:22:38

them to focus on their kids and their

future and what it's gonna look like.

452

: 00:22:41

Yep.

453

: 00:22:42

What is it all gonna look like?

454

: 00:22:44

And if you can kind of reframe it and

you start to like, look at it that

455

: 00:22:47

way, they're still gonna be emotional.

456

: 00:22:48

It's still gonna be hard.

457

: 00:22:50

Um, they still need, may need a

therapy session or two or a hundred

458

: 00:22:55

to work through why this all happened

and to sort of go through the.

459

: 00:23:00

Postmortem of why they

got to where they are.

460

: 00:23:03

Which by the way, not enough people do.

461

: 00:23:05

A lot of people get

married again without ever

462

: 00:23:07

Speaker: I know thinking about

463

: 00:23:08

Speaker 2: what happened, and

that's why they get divorced again.

464

: 00:23:10

Mm-hmm.

465

: 00:23:11

They also like, don't you,

it's really inter interesting.

466

: 00:23:14

People tend to marry

the same person again.

467

: 00:23:16

I, it's, uh, in a different body.

468

: 00:23:17

It's very, it's very interesting.

469

: 00:23:20

Speaker: Yeah.

470

: 00:23:20

Because they're not

Yeah, that's the, yeah,

471

: 00:23:22

Speaker 2: exactly.

472

: 00:23:23

So, you know, really.

473

: 00:23:25

Um, I think recognizing that you need a

coach and then I wish more attorneys would

474

: 00:23:31

tell their clients about divorce coaches.

475

: 00:23:33

Quite frankly, it would

make their lives easier.

476

: 00:23:36

Um, I think a lot of attorneys feel like

having a coach involved, some kind of

477

: 00:23:42

interferes with them to some degree,

but really can be such a great tool.

478

: 00:23:46

Mm-hmm.

479

: 00:23:46

Um, I mean, I sit in on meetings with,

um, my clients and their attorneys and

480

: 00:23:52

other people all the time just because.

481

: 00:23:56

Sometimes clients, if you're really

emotional, you're not listening to

482

: 00:24:00

what's actually happening, right?

483

: 00:24:01

You're not listening to what's actually

being said because you're hearing

484

: 00:24:04

everything through that emotional lens

instead of actually concentrating on what

485

: 00:24:08

is my attorney telling me that we need to

be doing or should be doing, or whatever.

486

: 00:24:13

Because all I'm hearing is.

487

: 00:24:15

Why should I have to pay alimony?

488

: 00:24:17

She's the one that wants a divorce.

489

: 00:24:18

She's the one who cheated on me.

490

: 00:24:19

Right?

491

: 00:24:19

You know, he's the one that did this.

492

: 00:24:21

Why should I, why should

he get custody of the kids?

493

: 00:24:23

I, you know, I, you hear it all through

that emotional lens as opposed to

494

: 00:24:27

being a reasonable person who's getting

divorced and understanding that.

495

: 00:24:32

The law really is set out to let both

people leave the marriage financially,

496

: 00:24:39

as you know, on relatively equal terms.

497

: 00:24:42

Mm-hmm.

498

: 00:24:42

You know, in terms of assets

and debt and all that.

499

: 00:24:45

Yep.

500

: 00:24:46

And also in custody, most of the time,

most of the states in our country are

501

: 00:24:50

really moving more and more towards

this presumption of a 50 50 equal cu,

502

: 00:24:57

whatever you wanna call it, equal custody.

503

: 00:24:58

Yeah.

504

: 00:24:59

Uh, arrangement that I know, um,

a lot of people don't like, but

505

: 00:25:04

that's where things are going.

506

: 00:25:05

Mm-hmm.

507

: 00:25:05

So sometimes you just have

to recognize this is reality.

508

: 00:25:08

Here's what's happening.

509

: 00:25:09

I need to get through the

emotions of what happened, and

510

: 00:25:12

I need to start concentrating

on the next chapter of my life.

511

: 00:25:15

Whatever that's gonna be.

512

: 00:25:15

Right.

513

: 00:25:16

Speaker: What, what do you want?

514

: 00:25:18

How do you want this to go?

515

: 00:25:20

What do you want this to look like?

516

: 00:25:21

And start focusing on that

and then being intentional.

517

: 00:25:25

But it is, it is hard.

518

: 00:25:26

And I know I get hard things there,

you know, and I will say that's

519

: 00:25:32

why coaching is so, I have a coach

that, you know, I don't know if you

520

: 00:25:38

have a coach, but it's very helpful,

even though I'm a trained coach.

521

: 00:25:42

Sometimes I, I don't see things and

I meet with a group of women once a

522

: 00:25:46

week and we take turns coaching each

other just for practice, you know?

523

: 00:25:49

So I highly, highly

recommend it for anyone.

524

: 00:25:54

And I love it because I think it is

kind of forward thinking like what,

525

: 00:26:01

how you can kind of do things better

in the future, which I like and not,

526

: 00:26:06

sometimes I can get sucked into the past

and I wanna move past that and really.

527

: 00:26:11

Go forward.

528

: 00:26:13

So it sounds like that's what

you're helping your people do.

529

: 00:26:16

Um, tell me, are you, what, when you look

at your work, are you mostly a mediator,

530

: 00:26:25

mostly a coach, mostly doing legal work?

531

: 00:26:28

Or is it just a, a lot of

it, a lot of different,

532

: 00:26:33

Speaker 2: well, right now, primarily

mediation and coaching, um, although

533

: 00:26:38

I'm doing a little bit more, um.

534

: 00:26:41

Legal work than I'd like to right now.

535

: 00:26:43

Mm-hmm.

536

: 00:26:43

But you know, sometimes it just

sort of things ebb ebbs and flows.

537

: 00:26:46

Um, I mean, even when I do legal work,

um, I really still try to keep the same

538

: 00:26:51

philosophy, you know, really try to

find ways to resolve things quickly.

539

: 00:26:55

I get my clients into mediation,

um, as quickly as possible as well.

540

: 00:27:01

But what's really, what's really

interesting is the most, uh, impactful

541

: 00:27:05

work that I do is mediation, but also.

542

: 00:27:11

I, I like coaching men, but I'm

really, I use the word coach.

543

: 00:27:14

I know we all use the word coach.

544

: 00:27:16

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

545

: 00:27:16

Speaker 2: Um, I, IT typically call

myself a men's divorce strategist.

546

: 00:27:20

'cause really what I'm trying to

do is to get them to understand a

547

: 00:27:24

strategy that's going to help them

get through the divorce without

548

: 00:27:28

them feeling like they got screwed.

549

: 00:27:31

So that's really so, and yes.

550

: 00:27:33

So I have to coach them

throughout the process, but.

551

: 00:27:36

The strategy always for me is to

convince them about how they need

552

: 00:27:41

to be in mediation, and then I

actually help them talk to their

553

: 00:27:44

spouses about going to mediation

and you know, finding a mediator.

554

: 00:27:49

And even if we are gonna get

our own attorneys, get attorneys

555

: 00:27:51

that are mediation minded.

556

: 00:27:53

I mean, I help guys all the time.

557

: 00:27:55

Hire their, uh, attorneys.

558

: 00:27:57

You know, I've actually sat on interviews

with attorneys, which, you know,

559

: 00:28:00

attorneys love that when I do that.

560

: 00:28:03

But still I'm help.

561

: 00:28:05

But if they're really emotional,

they need sometimes need somebody

562

: 00:28:07

else to hear what's going on.

563

: 00:28:09

And I know you just said you're

from a rural area of Minnesota.

564

: 00:28:12

Most of my men's.

565

: 00:28:15

Uh, uh, divorce coaching clients live in

rural areas and I think, uh, that's the

566

: 00:28:21

main reason that men in those areas don't

always have a lot of people to talk to.

567

: 00:28:26

You know, they're smaller

areas, smaller towns.

568

: 00:28:27

Mm-hmm.

569

: 00:28:28

They know everybody.

570

: 00:28:29

And so they've been, it's been a,

it was a part of the divorce cycle

571

: 00:28:34

that I saw was sort of missing.

572

: 00:28:36

And my family, most of my

family's from rural area,

573

: 00:28:39

they're cattle ranchers in Texas.

574

: 00:28:40

So I sort of know that community.

575

: 00:28:42

Mm-hmm.

576

: 00:28:42

I know what it looks like.

577

: 00:28:43

And so, um, you know, that's where at

when you're going through something

578

: 00:28:48

so deeply personal, you know, as

a man talking to the men who would

579

: 00:28:53

be listening to this, you've got

to just admit that you need help.

580

: 00:28:58

You need help managing your own emotions.

581

: 00:29:00

'cause most men are not very good at that.

582

: 00:29:02

Mm-hmm.

583

: 00:29:03

And, um, because if you don't do it,

your divorce will be more difficult.

584

: 00:29:06

It will be more, it'll take longer,

it'll cost more, and the end result

585

: 00:29:11

isn't gonna be any different.

586

: 00:29:12

You're just gonna feel even

more empty than you were.

587

: 00:29:15

If you had just, you know, sat down

with someone early on, worked through

588

: 00:29:19

what you're feeling, and, uh, figured

out a better strategy to move forward

589

: 00:29:23

Speaker: well, and really for the

women that are listening to, you know,

590

: 00:29:28

maybe let their acts or future acts.

591

: 00:29:34

Give them a little hint that maybe

it could help, because the better

592

: 00:29:38

that he is going to do through this,

the better it is for both of you.

593

: 00:29:43

So whether you're a man listening

to this or, or a woman, I,

594

: 00:29:47

I think it's so helpful.

595

: 00:29:48

Okay, so John, I have to ask if there

is someone from Minneapolis, Minnesota,

596

: 00:29:54

um, can they call, can they get ahold

of you to be a strategist for them?

597

: 00:29:59

Or are you just in New Jersey or.

598

: 00:30:02

How can they reach you?

599

: 00:30:03

Yeah,

600

: 00:30:04

Speaker 2: so what's interesting

about this is I do not work with,

601

: 00:30:07

um, coaching clients in New Jersey.

602

: 00:30:10

I just made a decision many years ago

since I'm a practicing attorney, just

603

: 00:30:13

to make sure I don't accidentally create

conflicts that don't need to exist.

604

: 00:30:18

So, um, I only coach people

outside New Jersey, but I coach

605

: 00:30:21

people all over the world.

606

: 00:30:22

I have clients in various other

countries as well, because divorce,

607

: 00:30:27

strangely enough, isn't that different.

608

: 00:30:29

No matter where you are, the

issues are pretty much the same.

609

: 00:30:32

Uh, the laws are different,

the process is different.

610

: 00:30:34

Mm-hmm.

611

: 00:30:35

But everything else is

pretty much the same.

612

: 00:30:36

But yeah.

613

: 00:30:37

Uh, men's divorce network.com

614

: 00:30:39

is, uh, the site.

615

: 00:30:40

We have a free, uh, men's support group.

616

: 00:30:42

It's a Facebook group that,

um, it is so active I don't

617

: 00:30:46

really even have to do much.

618

: 00:30:48

Like guys get in there and

they give each other advice and

619

: 00:30:50

they just talk through issues.

620

: 00:30:52

Now if it's, you know, it could be

something like I just, you know, this

621

: 00:30:55

horrible thing happened this past weekend.

622

: 00:30:57

Everyone talked me off a ledge and people

do that and it's really, so, it's so great

623

: 00:31:02

to see, uh, guys taking advantage of that.

624

: 00:31:04

'cause before, I know a lot of women

have those groups, both, they have

625

: 00:31:08

their own circles in their communities

with their friends, but they also

626

: 00:31:12

have some of these other groups.

627

: 00:31:13

And, um, you know, it's good to see

men are starting to, like, I see men

628

: 00:31:17

starting to do that more and more.

629

: 00:31:18

And it's a, it's a great

change and I think that's why.

630

: 00:31:21

I think we're moving towards mediation

as a society more and more, and we'll

631

: 00:31:27

talk about those other things like

collaborative law and all those other

632

: 00:31:30

things that I really, I have all

kinds of issues with, which I could

633

: 00:31:33

go on a rampage about for a while.

634

: 00:31:36

I just talked to

635

: 00:31:36

Speaker: a collaborative law

attorney before you today, John.

636

: 00:31:38

Be careful.

637

: 00:31:39

No,

638

: 00:31:40

Speaker 2: no kidding, kidding.

639

: 00:31:41

I, I, there there's, you know,

like, you know, there's a time and

640

: 00:31:45

a place for every process There

641

: 00:31:47

Speaker: is.

642

: 00:31:47

Yes.

643

: 00:31:48

Speaker 2: But, but I

think for most people.

644

: 00:31:51

We shouldn't overcomplicate.

645

: 00:31:53

What is something that should be

simple, and I think the simplest

646

: 00:31:58

approach is a good trained mediator who

understands what needs to be resolved,

647

: 00:32:03

what the issues are, what the law

is, and, and in terms of the laws,

648

: 00:32:07

you know, what can and can't be done.

649

: 00:32:09

And can sit down with two people who are

just interested in resolving it quickly.

650

: 00:32:13

That is the most simplistic approach.

651

: 00:32:15

And if that's what works, then

that's what you should do.

652

: 00:32:18

There's no need to, you know, start hiring

all these people and spending all this

653

: 00:32:22

money if you don't absolutely need to.

654

: 00:32:23

Yep.

655

: 00:32:24

Speaker: I.

656

: 00:32:25

I totally agree.

657

: 00:32:26

So I love that and we're

gonna end it there.

658

: 00:32:29

So I am so thankful for having you here

and I'm going to have, I'm gonna have

659

: 00:32:34

your podcast, I'm gonna have how people

can reach you in the show notes 'cause

660

: 00:32:39

I think it's gonna be really helpful.

661

: 00:32:40

I think you're gonna be a great

resource, so I appreciate you John.

662

: 00:32:44

Thank you so much.

663

: 00:32:46

Speaker 2: Thank you

so much for having me.

664

: 00:32:48

Speaker: You take care.