Gray Divorce, Real Talk: What No One Tells You After 50

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I am so excited for this week's doing divorce different.

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I'm so excited to be back.

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I'm so excited for my guest.

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You're going to love her.

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She is a retired judge,

not really retired.

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She's just, I.

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Not a judge anymore.

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She's in private practice.

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Her name is Michelle Locke.

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She is from Texas and she has so much

information for you about divorce.

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If I were in Texas and I needed to

hire an attorney to do my divorce,

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it would definitely be Michelle.

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She understands every aspect.

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She has been a child of divorce.

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She has.

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Been through a divorce and she has tried

divorce cases, uh, over and over again.

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She's, she's so fun to listen to.

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She's gonna give us her story

and then she's gonna go into.

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Divorce and we're gonna, it's a little bit

scary to hear about how it works in, in

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Texas, and I don't want you to be afraid.

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I want you to use this to gain

information and insight so that you

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can start this journey if you need to.

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And you know, I don't want you

to get divorced unless you have

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to, but we're gonna talk about.

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All things divorce and and gray

divorce because I have kinda white

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hair and so I'm always interested.

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So we talk about gray divorce because

that can be really scary if you are

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getting close to retirement and this is

something that maybe has been thrown at

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you or something that you want to pursue.

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So it's about great divorce.

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And then at the very end, just because

she's so knowledgeable, I wanted to get

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a little more information about abuse.

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So we're gonna delve into that

at the end of this podcast.

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Listeners, she's so fun to listen to.

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This is what I want you to know.

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If you wanna hear more, please

go to My Saddle Up Live podcast.

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You know that I'm doing that now too.

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And we're, I'm, I'm talking to Michelle,

the judge and the attorney, and we're

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talking about self-care and who better

to talk through self-care than her.

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So, um, enjoy, enjoy this episode.

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Send me notes, subscribe.

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Let me know if you have questions.

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I'm here for you and I want

you to have a better life.

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Even after divorce.

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Stay tuned.

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Okay, so now I've kinda set the stage

for this beautiful woman sitting in front

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of me, this woman who wants to educate

people so that they're less afraid.

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I love that about you, Michelle.

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I think what my listeners love to

hear, they love to really get to

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know the people on this podcast.

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Could you just share, I don't think

you've had an easy life or an easy story.

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Can you share your authentic story so we

can get to know you a little bit better?

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Speaker 2: First off, I don't like

to think of my background as anything

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more difficult than anyone else has.

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It's just my personal experience.

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Okay.

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That being said, I'll never forget,

I was in second grade in Miss Henry's

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class and it was October, and my mom.

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Pull us aside on a Friday after school

and said Dad wasn't coming back anymore.

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And I remember my mom crying afterwards

and I remember myself crying, but

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I also don't remember it being some

big surprise leading up to that.

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My parents had a tumultuous

relationship and not because of my mom.

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It was a hundred percent my dad's fault.

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I remember my dad slamming

my mom up against the wall,

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her begging him not to leave.

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Because the, I guess the flavor of the

week for him was sitting in a car across

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the street fighting to pick him up.

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I remember lots of times with my mom

crying, and I also remember about the

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same time that she told us she was

getting divorced or the dad wasn't

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coming home anymore, that she took me

by the chin and she had me look up in

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her eyes and she said to me, shadow,

she's like, you get an education and

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you never depend on a man for anything.

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That's because the position that my

dad put her in was not a good one,

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and that's because he was a doctor.

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She wasn't an FYI.

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For those that think that you, you're

a doctor's kid, so you grow up for

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little to have some great life.

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I can tell you that it was a

hundred percent not accurate.

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In my case, it was quite the contrary.

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So my mom told me that and I really

took it to heart, and so been

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pretty independent minded and.

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Driven as long as I can remember.

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I remember going back and forth

between my dad's house, my mom's house.

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I remember hating it.

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I remember coming home and my dad's

house smelled so bad because he

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had over 200 birds in his house and

y'all, I'm not talking like canaries.

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Okay?

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I am talking like full blown

like mullekin, Scarlets blue

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and grays, African grays.

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I mean every kind of bird.

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That was possible.

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My father had.

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And so my mom would make my brother

and I trip down to our underwear

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since we got home on Sundays and go

shower because we smelled so bad.

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I say that because I saw and lived how

horrible divorce done wrong can be, and

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it wasn't done wrong because of my mom.

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It was truly done wrong because I

don't think my dad really gave a

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shit, for lack of a better word,

of the effect on the children.

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I think he really believed that.

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You all are kids and

deal with it, suck it up.

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And that really was kinda his attitude.

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And so I remember when I was about eight

or nine years old, he told me that if I

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ever became a lawyer, he would disown me.

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And I was like, done.

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And so really, I don't think

I've ever deviated from that

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point forward of wanting to be

anything else other than a lawyer.

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And so I went to undergrad but got my

degree in finance because I didn't wanna

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be unemployed with a history major.

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Mm-hmm.

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In case law school didn't work out.

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Speaker: Right.

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And

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Speaker 2: then I still went to law school

and then graduated from law school at 25.

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The traditional, like big law firm

route because I think that's what I'd

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always imagined I would do is go work

in Dallas or Houston for a big law firm.

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I worked for the big law firm for a

while out in West Texas and realized how

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miserable I was, but I wanted to be in a

courtroom doing my passion, which at the

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time was criminal defense and family law.

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I did my first contested custody case in

law school, my third year of law school.

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At the time I had met my, at

the time husband were now since

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divorced, but he had two little

girls and he had been a prosecutor

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for 10 plus years at that point.

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His girls were three and five, and

I remember I wasn't gonna make two

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little girls lose their dad because

I knew how much I wanted a dad in

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my life and my dad just wasn't.

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And so I made the commitment to stay

there until they graduated high school.

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The youngest graduated in 2015.

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And so in 2016 I left Boob Central Texas.

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I left a full-time judgeship.

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I was an associate judge in

family law in West Texas, and

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I've done it for about five years.

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But from practicing law now for

23, I came back to Central Texas

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where I went to undergrad and really

started over again with a practice

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and was able, fortunately, to make

something of myself pretty quickly.

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And I was able to gain a

judgeship back here within three

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years of me moving here, right?

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For one of the smaller municipalities

that are outside of Austin.

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And so that's kind of where I sit today.

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I am divorced.

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I've got three boys.

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I've got my dog and two cats, and

my boys are 21 and he's a paramedic.

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The 19-year-old is still

in college, thank goodness.

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And then the 9-year-old is

nine, so he's still perfect.

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'cause the hormones haven't hit yet.

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I figured I got two more years

left before he turns into a teenage

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boy, which for about zero fun.

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Yeah, boys are, but that's my story.

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I mean, I've been the stepmom.

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I do divorce law.

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I've been the kid of divorce.

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I've sat on the bench seeing divorces

from the judge perspective I.

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I'm back in private practice and

now I'm divorced and navigating how

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divorce works, uh, from my perspective.

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And so I really have seen all sides of it.

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And so I don't know if that's a good

thing, bad thing or indifferent,

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but it gives me, um, I think a

pretty unique perspective that

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I carry into my practice today.

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Speaker: Yeah.

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I read up on you.

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I stalked you a little bit,

but I didn't know all of this.

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I didn't know all these details.

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And Michelle, I can't

imagine if I were in Texas.

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I can't imagine anyone that I would

have different than you to represent me.

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Okay?

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Because you have seen it from

all sides, and I feel so proud

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of how you took something in

your life that was kind of hard.

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You know, you went through hard

things as a kid, and look at how it

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has led your whole life and think

of all the lives you have touched.

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Made better because of that.

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And so I'm just like, you

are my kind of people.

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I love that and I'm so thankful.

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So thankful that you're here sharing

this story and okay, Michelle, now

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we've heard your amazing story and I

wanna pick your brain a little bit.

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I wanna pick your brain because I've

got white hair about gray divorce.

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What is going on and why is sun happening?

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Did I just make you spit out your coffee?

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Speaker 2: I laugh because I, I did, I

spoke about in gray divorce a fair amount

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the last couple weeks, Uhhuh, and you

have, by the way, stunning gray hair.

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Well, thank you.

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If my hair looked like that, I may

let mine come in, but it doesn't.

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So I'm looking at my roots on the camera.

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I'm like, oh God, I need

to see my hairdresser.

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Speaker: Um, it's a little bit easier.

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I'll dye my hair

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Speaker 2: until I'm 80.

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Speaker: Thought that and then I just

got so sick of it, so I don't know.

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Whi I just quit.

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Well, it looks great.

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Looks fabulous.

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Looks fabulous.

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I appreciate that so much.

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What a great

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Speaker 2: segue.

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Well, no, and then I, it goes back to

like the guf, that's like the grandma

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I'd like to, is one of the record jokes.

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Now I'm like, yeah, I think you hit that.

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I think you hit that category.

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Speaker: I needed to

hear that today, honey.

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So let's talk about, do you

have a lot of gray people that

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you're doing divorces for?

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What is going on?

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So, I think gray divorce,

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Speaker 2: and I hate

that term by the way.

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I know I kinda do too.

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I call it a mature divorce, is

kind of what I'm calling it now.

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That's really people over, I'd say

late forties, early fifties and up.

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I think that's, and it's really

probably more fifties and up, but

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it's also longer term marriages.

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So it's really, for me,

it's a mature divorce.

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It's people that are in, it's

the people that you wouldn't

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think are getting divorced.

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They've already been so long

together, so long it's well,

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why not stick it out to the end?

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And I think that's the problem.

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You get one of 'em that's

like, ah, the kids are gone.

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The kids at a home empty nester syndrome.

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And you look at the person that's

next to you and think, Nope.

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I'm not doing this.

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I think what they're saying right

now is divorce rates actually down.

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I find that surprising just based on

how busy I am, because there was a

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huge increase in divorce during covid.

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Then shortly post after major Covid,

the divorce rates skyrocketed because

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you got a good taste of what it

was like to be retired because you

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had that person in your house all

day long and there were no breaks.

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So alcoholism rates went up.

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I think drug addiction

went up during covid.

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I think affairs went down.

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Because of my mom was fucking home,

and I actually have a theory on that.

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I think that because affairs went

down, divorces went up because people

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couldn't get their quick happy fix.

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And so instead they were just home

miserable and so hell and got divorced.

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Great.

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Divorce is increasing and I think

it's because people are looking

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at who they're with and thinking,

I don't wanna do this anymore.

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And.

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I don't know why people have

gotten to that point, but I

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think that's happening a lot.

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The kids are leaving home and

they're just get, they're just tired.

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And I understand the being tired,

like looking at the person next

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to you, because think about this.

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You are in your twenties, right?

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And you're in your fifties

now and you've raised kids.

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You've done all those things together.

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You either grow together or you grow

apart because no one is the same at.

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50 that they were at 25,

and thank God for that.

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But people change and you either do,

you grow together, you grow apart.

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And I think the people that are

growing apart are just deciding

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whether it's one or both.

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I don't wanna do this anymore.

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And the problem with the gray

divorce is to figure out assets

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because it's harder, especially if

you've been a stay at home parent.

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Mm-hmm.

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To start over.

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Especially when your life plan was

to grow old with this person and

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you were the homemaker forever.

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And he was the moneymaker forever.

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That's how you were supposed to set

sunset into retirement and you get

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divorced because he's now someone else.

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And then you're like, well, now what?

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Because you've not developed any skills.

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You've not, I mean, it can be

problematic for the great divorce.

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Speaker: It really can be.

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And how do you, I mean, and I know every

state is different, but for those, I mean,

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I'm sorry, but when you just said, I just

thought of the woman who maybe didn't want

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the divorce, who worked her little tushy

off taking care of everything at home.

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Hubby leaves, she's ma

what if she's like 65?

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Right?

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He leaves, what happens?

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What kind of income does she get?

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Now, maybe they had, at least

she gets half the assets, right?

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So at least she has Correct.

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But what kind of, what kind of

income is she gonna look at getting?

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I mean,

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Speaker 2: that's the problem.

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And so I can tell you that in Texas,

I can't tell that in other states.

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Texas is an antimony state in Texas.

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We call it spousal maintenance, and it,

Texas is not a state to get divorced

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in if you are a stay at out wife.

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Bottom line, a three day final

trial on a 24 year marriage.

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They were both early fifties, both

really nice people, but probably

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she'd ended their marriage seven,

eight years before the court awarded

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her alimony for a year only I.

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At $1,500 a month because in Texas,

not only is there a presumption

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against it, the court is required to

order alimony, spousal maintenance

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for the shortest duration and for

the minimum amount necessary to get

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them to the, so they can make meet

their basic minimum reasonable needs.

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So it's a low standard.

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I try to, another case before covid,

same thing, long-term marriage.

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He was a divorce, he was a

criminal defense attorney.

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I represented him.

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She didn't even speak much English.

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They'd been married for over

20 years and the court gave her

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1500 a month for three years.

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That was it.

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And so, yeah, so I always tell clients

in that position, and sometimes it can

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be the men, the men, men that don't

work in the knife works, but most

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often it's a women in that position.

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And I quite often tell them, because

they come in so I wanna get divorced.

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I said, okay, what's plan B?

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They don't have a plan B of like

how you're gonna support yourself.

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So I send them away and I tell

'em, real honestly, I'm like, you

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are not ready to get divorced.

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I said, you need to figure out plan B.

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You need to, you know, figure out

how to establish yourself and earn

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some income before you do anything

else with regards to filing.

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But then on the converse, what happens

is you get the men that go fi file

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for divorce and they have no choice.

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Yeah.

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But be involved in the process.

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You can't force someone

to stay married to you.

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Mm-hmm.

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So it, it is, at least in Texas, it can

be extremely problematic and that, that,

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that sounds problematic is more difficult.

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Oh, it is.

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And that's where you get some of the

extreme bitterness and some of the

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extreme kids taking sides, adult kids

taking sides for exactly that reason

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because one person is inevitably getting

screwed if they have to go to court.

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: 00:16:08

Lots of those cases will settle

for much more reasonable terms,

319

: 00:16:11

but if you go to court that it's,

it, it can be very problematic.

320

: 00:16:15

For the non wage earning spouse.

321

: 00:16:18

Speaker: That doesn't sound

very nice at all, Michelle.

322

: 00:16:21

It's not, and it's not

like that in Minnesota.

323

: 00:16:23

And when I work was, I knew

I heard the northern accent.

324

: 00:16:27

I

325

: 00:16:27

Speaker 2: knew, I heard.

326

: 00:16:30

Should you hear that?

327

: 00:16:31

No.

328

: 00:16:31

No.

329

: 00:16:32

I'm originally from Winnipeg.

330

: 00:16:34

Oh boy.

331

: 00:16:35

Right.

332

: 00:16:36

So I heard it and it's various

flights, but I heard, I was like,

333

: 00:16:40

she sounds like a Northerner.

334

: 00:16:41

I'm like, but I didn't say anything else.

335

: 00:16:43

Just keep my, but yeah, I knew it.

336

: 00:16:45

Speaker: Yes, ma'am.

337

: 00:16:47

It's very different and especially when

I work with someone on a mediation.

338

: 00:16:50

We work together and we try to

figure out, what do you need?

339

: 00:16:53

What do you have?

340

: 00:16:54

I love that so much better.

341

: 00:16:55

And in Texas, if I were that

woman, I would hire you to help me

342

: 00:16:59

so that you could figure it out.

343

: 00:17:01

My main thing, and I just did a podcast

on this, is to, when you are starting out

344

: 00:17:06

this divorce process, educate yourself.

345

: 00:17:09

If you can hire a team and get attorneys

and coaches and therapists and whatever.

346

: 00:17:15

If you can't research it because

you have to have an understanding.

347

: 00:17:19

And Michelle, the thing that's so hard

is a lot of these women are so tired

348

: 00:17:22

they don't even wanna deal with it.

349

: 00:17:24

And I've had good friends that

have lost out on a lot because

350

: 00:17:27

they just are like, I am done.

351

: 00:17:29

I don't wanna deal with this anymore.

352

: 00:17:31

And I just say, had that

endurance to study to know it

353

: 00:17:37

and to make it till the end.

354

: 00:17:38

Hopefully you can work together.

355

: 00:17:40

It really is the best way.

356

: 00:17:41

I unfortunately

357

: 00:17:42

Speaker 2: don't.

358

: 00:17:43

Get hired on those types of cases.

359

: 00:17:44

I, I'm in court more than

I wanna be, quite frankly.

360

: 00:17:47

And the judges, you always

wonder like, why are you here?

361

: 00:17:49

I'm like, I don't, I don't wanna be

here, judge, but I don't have a choice.

362

: 00:17:52

People, you try to settle but can't.

363

: 00:17:54

Speaker: Right.

364

: 00:17:55

Speaker 2: But yeah, to working together.

365

: 00:17:56

We have collaborative law in Texas and

that's more of a working together like

366

: 00:18:00

collaboration and for great divorces.

367

: 00:18:02

I think that's such a better option.

368

: 00:18:05

But the other problem is, is you've

got a stay at home spouse, and

369

: 00:18:08

let's say the wage earning spouse

is the one that files for divorce.

370

: 00:18:11

Then you've got such

bitterness on the other side.

371

: 00:18:15

Mm-hmm.

372

: 00:18:15

That bitterness really gets in the

way of thinking clearly and thinking

373

: 00:18:20

strategically and thinking in a business

mindset when you're doing the divorce.

374

: 00:18:25

Because in that particular scenario, you

have to put your business hat on 'cause

375

: 00:18:28

it's a business transaction at that point.

376

: 00:18:30

And when you've got that bitterness

because you were sidelined by

377

: 00:18:33

it, I mean it's just, yeah.

378

: 00:18:35

The bitterness.

379

: 00:18:37

Speaker: And that's so interesting

that you bring that up because I am

380

: 00:18:40

such a proponent, I'm, I'm trained as

a coach too, to get that mindset right.

381

: 00:18:45

If you are thinking about getting

divorced, dig in and work on yourself

382

: 00:18:51

and maybe spend three months and take

one last judge effort into that marriage

383

: 00:18:57

because you are going to be better.

384

: 00:19:00

You're gonna be able to communicate

better if you can get your

385

: 00:19:03

mind right and prepare for it.

386

: 00:19:07

It's going to spring you

into a better life, right?

387

: 00:19:10

Mm-hmm.

388

: 00:19:10

Even if you're that woman who's

terrified in Texas, there's gonna be

389

: 00:19:14

all kinds of blessings that are gonna

come if you can work on yourself,

390

: 00:19:18

and that's kinda self-care in a way.

391

: 00:19:20

Like get your mind right, get your

mind right, believe in yourself,

392

: 00:19:24

so that when you do make the

decision to either stay married,

393

: 00:19:29

you know how to set up boundaries,

you know how to be treated well.

394

: 00:19:33

Or if it gets to the point where you

have to get divorced, the divorce goes

395

: 00:19:36

better because you are in a better space.

396

: 00:19:39

And sometimes it's hard, even in

a mediation when people wanna work

397

: 00:19:43

together, where you gotta go, okay,

let's take a deep breath, throw

398

: 00:19:48

one in their corners and breathe.

399

: 00:19:51

Exactly.

400

: 00:19:52

Exactly.

401

: 00:19:52

Okay, so Michelle, I forgot to

mention this at the beginning,

402

: 00:19:55

but you, I feel like I don't

know a lot about domestic abuse.

403

: 00:20:01

And I wanna talk about abuse

a little bit simply because I

404

: 00:20:07

always want us to be aware of it.

405

: 00:20:09

I want us to be able to maybe pick

up on it, you know, like me as a

406

: 00:20:15

mediator when I'm doing a consult.

407

: 00:20:17

Sometimes I can miss it, but then as I

start working with a couple, then I might

408

: 00:20:23

be able to see it a little bit better.

409

: 00:20:25

But tell me a little bit, you've

done a lot of work in this area.

410

: 00:20:29

Can you talk about this just

a little bit at Toward for the

411

: 00:20:32

end of this podcast episode?

412

: 00:20:36

Speaker 2: Sure.

413

: 00:20:37

You know, unless a client's gonna

come out outright and tell you,

414

: 00:20:41

you know, he's beaten me or she's

beaten me, domestic violence happens

415

: 00:20:44

on both sides of the spectrum.

416

: 00:20:45

It is not just predominantly women

getting abused, men get abused as well.

417

: 00:20:49

I think men have a much harder

time admitting to being abused.

418

: 00:20:53

Because of the masculinity that

comes along with, you know, how can

419

: 00:20:57

you actually admit that you're five

two white beats the crap at you?

420

: 00:21:00

Speaker: Right?

421

: 00:21:00

Speaker 2: But domestic violence, if

someone's not really forthcoming on

422

: 00:21:04

it, can be very subtle and you will

get some people that don't want to talk

423

: 00:21:09

about it because it's embarrassing.

424

: 00:21:11

It's how to let it go on,

especially on the gray divorces.

425

: 00:21:14

How do I let him, because abuse is not

just physical abuse is emotional as well.

426

: 00:21:20

So you look for signs.

427

: 00:21:23

One of the signs that I predominantly

look for, it's usually one of

428

: 00:21:26

the biggest red flags, is control

who's controlling everything.

429

: 00:21:31

That's the bank accounts, that is the

credit cards, whose name is in, whose

430

: 00:21:37

name is on all the assets versus not.

431

: 00:21:40

But you look for patterns of

control because that is one of

432

: 00:21:44

the telltale signs, for example.

433

: 00:21:47

If the parties separate and the

husband cuts off all access to

434

: 00:21:52

all funds, pretty good indication.

435

: 00:21:55

He was abusive of them some way or

form, especially if they cut off

436

: 00:21:58

the debit card, the credit card.

437

: 00:22:00

I mean, and I've seen cases

where they cut off all financial

438

: 00:22:03

support and that person's gotten

nothing and no access to anything.

439

: 00:22:06

Those are, I mean, that to me

is a pretty good indication that

440

: 00:22:11

there is, it may not be physical

abuse, but there's some kind of.

441

: 00:22:14

Emotional abuse going on.

442

: 00:22:16

Isolation's.

443

: 00:22:17

Another one, if the person is isolated

from friends, family doesn't have a

444

: 00:22:23

support system in the area in which

they live, unless they're brand new

445

: 00:22:26

transplants, that area, someone's

gonna have some kind of network.

446

: 00:22:31

And so if they're isolated and don't have

much of a network, that's a clue as well.

447

: 00:22:37

Words they say also can be clues of.

448

: 00:22:41

Well, I don't know.

449

: 00:22:42

He is never let me have access to it.

450

: 00:22:43

Like the finances are

always the big control.

451

: 00:22:45

If you don't know what you have in a

marital state, then the other spouse

452

: 00:22:50

is controlling and that is a red flag.

453

: 00:22:52

And so a lot of times your advice to

your clients needs to be, if there's

454

: 00:22:59

no domestic violence, I would tell

you to do this It for any reason

455

: 00:23:02

that you think you're in danger,

then my advice changes substantially.

456

: 00:23:06

And we need to ensure that you're safe.

457

: 00:23:08

So it's a fine line because some won't

want to admit it unless you, and it's

458

: 00:23:15

usually what I was like, are you sure?

459

: 00:23:17

There's nothing else you wanna tell me.

460

: 00:23:18

I was like, because I'm seeing some red

flags and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm seeing

461

: 00:23:22

some red flags and that's usually when

they'll break down and you can see it.

462

: 00:23:26

Speaker: And do you ever think though,

that sometimes I feel like I've seen

463

: 00:23:33

where the woman doesn't even see it.

464

: 00:23:36

She wouldn't even know to call it that.

465

: 00:23:39

Correct.

466

: 00:23:40

And that's, that is absolutely, so I guess

bringing that, even just talking about

467

: 00:23:48

this, if you are in a relationship where

you don't know what's going on, you have

468

: 00:23:54

no idea where you are, you sit financially

if you, that's abuse, financial abuse.

469

: 00:24:02

Now, that doesn't mean you gotta

go freak out and get divorced.

470

: 00:24:05

It means you've gotta go talk to your

husband about it and say, you know what?

471

: 00:24:10

I need to know about it.

472

: 00:24:11

I, I know what,

473

: 00:24:11

Speaker 2: right?

474

: 00:24:12

Yeah.

475

: 00:24:12

Like information.

476

: 00:24:13

If you are being cut off from

the information in your marriage

477

: 00:24:18

that relates to your financial

wellbeing, that's a red flag.

478

: 00:24:23

When I say talking about getting educated

and knowledge is really power, I hate the

479

: 00:24:27

term narcissistic abuse because I think

narcissism is such an overused term.

480

: 00:24:31

I think there are lots of people

that have, almost everyone has a

481

: 00:24:34

narcissistic trait, whether they

actually are a narcissist, which is an

482

: 00:24:38

entirely different con uh, different

conversation, but there are flags.

483

: 00:24:43

That's a red flag, y'all.

484

: 00:24:44

That's control.

485

: 00:24:45

And control can be a form of abuse.

486

: 00:24:48

There may be a perfectly reasonable

reason for it, but unless you know

487

: 00:24:51

what that reason is, and I always,

that's always the way it's been.

488

: 00:24:55

Well, that may mean that you've

always been abused financially

489

: 00:24:57

for 25 years or 30 years.

490

: 00:24:59

But it's amazing how often you'll

get people that come in that have

491

: 00:25:04

no idea what their finances are.

492

: 00:25:05

Well, he's always controlled it

493

: 00:25:07

Speaker: there.

494

: 00:25:09

That is the case way more often than not,

and sometimes they're both like deer in

495

: 00:25:15

headlights where they don't even know

what they're spending, and it's like

496

: 00:25:18

know what you're spending every month.

497

: 00:25:20

If you're gonna be going

through a divorce, well, yeah.

498

: 00:25:22

'cause you're only forced

to face it at some point.

499

: 00:25:24

Yeah, you've gotta figure it out.

500

: 00:25:26

You're gonna feel better

once you actually see it.

501

: 00:25:29

So you can start to able with a

plan, but you can change that.

502

: 00:25:32

Speaker 2: Yeah.

503

: 00:25:33

And remember y'all, your Amazon purchase

history is discoverable in divorce cases.

504

: 00:25:39

Oh, it was scary.

505

: 00:25:40

Although I think my husband

506

: 00:25:42

Speaker: sees all those

and I think we're stuck.

507

: 00:25:44

I think we're gonna hang in there for

this, but it's not that I haven't had

508

: 00:25:47

a near divorce experience in my life.

509

: 00:25:50

There have been things that have happened,

and it's not that we haven't grown and we

510

: 00:25:55

have changed and it's, I think it's been

a little painful for him sometimes when I

511

: 00:26:00

like ebb and flow and have a one boundary.

512

: 00:26:05

For the first 20 years, and then I go,

Nope, that's not my boundary anymore.

513

: 00:26:08

This is trust pivot.

514

: 00:26:12

Yes.

515

: 00:26:13

It's like, sorry, gotta

516

: 00:26:14

Speaker 2: pivot.

517

: 00:26:15

Speaker: Yes, yes, yes.

518

: 00:26:16

Well, I have to pivot

519

: 00:26:17

Speaker 2: too.

520

: 00:26:18

Speaker: Yes.

521

: 00:26:20

Well, and it's not even, it's more

of a pivot because I'm learning too.

522

: 00:26:26

Love myself more and to value how I feel.

523

: 00:26:30

Where I think before if someone

told me how I felt was stupid,

524

: 00:26:33

well I just believed it, you know?

525

: 00:26:35

Right.

526

: 00:26:35

And it's like, no, how

I feel is how I feel.

527

: 00:26:38

What I need is what I need.

528

: 00:26:39

And so it just, you change, and

it's a beautiful thing when you can

529

: 00:26:45

work really hard and do it together.

530

: 00:26:47

So I do always recommend that

for people, put in one last ditch

531

: 00:26:51

effort so you don't have to go.

532

: 00:26:53

And question if you did the right thing,

or you know, if it could have worked out.

533

: 00:26:57

Worked super hard for three months

because like you said, there's so many

534

: 00:27:01

people in the gray divorce field who

have been thinking about it for 15, 20

535

: 00:27:05

years, and they've never done anything.

536

: 00:27:07

Well, maybe if you would've taken

an effort, you either would've had

537

: 00:27:10

a way better marriage, or you would

be moving on to a better life.

538

: 00:27:14

Speaker 2: I felt like clients, I

said pick a date 60 days from now,

539

: 00:27:16

90 days from now, 180 days from now.

540

: 00:27:18

I don't care what the

date is, but pick a date.

541

: 00:27:21

And pick what you want to

have changed by that date.

542

: 00:27:25

And if it hasn't, then, you know, right.

543

: 00:27:27

Put all your effort into

it up until that date.

544

: 00:27:31

'cause otherwise just keep

picking the ball down the road.

545

: 00:27:34

Speaker: Right.

546

: 00:27:34

And that effort is taking care of you too.

547

: 00:27:38

And setting up your new boundaries.

548

: 00:27:40

And I mean, it's a lifelong journey,

this learning and growing, you

549

: 00:27:45

know, so And, and I love that.

550

: 00:27:47

I love that about life.

551

: 00:27:48

And Michelle, I have taken

up so much of your time.

552

: 00:27:51

This was such a treat.

553

: 00:27:52

It was so much more fun

than I ever thought.

554

: 00:27:55

You're an amazing woman.

555

: 00:27:56

I'm so thankful you were on.

556

: 00:27:58

You're on both my podcasts doing

Divorce Different and settle up lives,

557

: 00:28:01

so, you know, listeners listen to her

on both because they're both telling

558

: 00:28:05

a little bit of a different story

and we get to really get to know you.

559

: 00:28:08

And I hope that someday, you

know, I have never been to Texas.

560

: 00:28:11

I mean, I've driven through a

corner of it on my way to Arizona.

561

: 00:28:15

I would love to come and see you sometime

'cause we are like a different, I'm

562

: 00:28:19

like, bring me your people in here.

563

: 00:28:20

Fighting it out in court.

564

: 00:28:22

Speaker 2: Yeah.

565

: 00:28:23

I was like, I'm uh,

come down to Austin now.

566

: 00:28:25

I would not come from May until September

because it's like the service of the sun.

567

: 00:28:30

But late October, early November or

early spring, like right now, it's

568

: 00:28:35

beautiful weather and so yeah, and

there's lots of stuff to do, but

569

: 00:28:38

you ever, ever make it down here all

together on a tour of the courthouses

570

: 00:28:42

that I visit around here that's know,

571

: 00:28:43

Speaker: I, I would love that.

572

: 00:28:44

And I'll be trying to make

peace everywhere I go.

573

: 00:28:47

Speaker 2: Mom brings a piece

down here to my clients.

574

: 00:28:49

Speaker: Thank you so much for being here.

575

: 00:28:52

Take.