Postnups That Protect: Strengthening Marriage with Legal Clarity and Collaborative Agreements

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Welcome to part two of Doing Divorce Different, where we have attorney

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Melissa Maro Slage back with us today.

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Last week she talked about

prenuptial agreements.

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So, so insightful.

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I learned so much and I mean, this is

my work, so go back and listen to that.

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If you are thinking

about getting married or.

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You know, maybe thinking about getting

married again after divorce, how you

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wanna do it better the next time around.

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It's a great, great tool.

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Today we're gonna talk about

postnuptial agreements.

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These are agreements that you make

when you're already married, and

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there are many times that you.

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Would want to do this, and

we're gonna talk through that

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all through this episode.

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It can help you if you do end

up in divorce, it can help you

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have a stronger marriage because

you're gonna see your assets.

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Usually people do it when there's

maybe a shift in assets, like

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someone starting a business.

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A new one that I learned

was stay at home moms.

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You can set up how the money would go.

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If something did happen in the future.

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So it's just a great planning tool to

do when you're in the right state of

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mind and not even thinking of divorce.

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And sometimes I have people

coming in to do 'em because

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they wanna save their marriage.

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So it's a great episode.

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Stay tuned.

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We're still thankful that she's back.

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. Speaker 2: Now, if you, if you go into

it, you know, eyes wide open, I think.

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And the conversations I have with clients

who are doing this process, prenup or

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postnup, um, they're really thoughtful

conversations and I think it gives people

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a moment to pause, to think about, oh,

actually, how, how does this work for me?

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I, um, I, I brought this business in

and I own it, and what happens if my

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spouse starts working in the business?

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Or what happens if my spouse

never works in the business?

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What if it goes bust?

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What if it goes amazing?

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: And it's a chance

for people to come together and.

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Put together shared goals, essentially.

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Speaker: Well, and I like too that each

party must be represented by an attorney.

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Speaker 2: That's Anup agreement.

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Yeah.

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So here's the thing.

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In prenuptial agreements, and I'm

just gonna keep saying Minnesota

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'cause that's where I am.

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Speaker: Yep.

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Speaker 2: You're not required to have

an attorney for prenuptial agreements.

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I would highly recommend it.

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No, you're

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Speaker: not required to.

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Speaker 2: But I.

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I would wear it for many reasons,

uh, if I'm working with a couple,

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um, in a postnuptial agreement.

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So you're already married.

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That is one of the big differences

between a prenup and a postnup is

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that you are required, at least in

Minnesota to both have attorneys.

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Speaker: I, and I think with a pre,

it would make it hold its weight.

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Much better because the judge would

feel like you were truly understanding

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what you were doing if it did end up.

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So yeah, I would highly recommend that.

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Okay.

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So thank you for going off on a

tangent with prenups 'cause I, I

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have wanted to talk about them and

now if you don't mind, let's kinda.

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Flip into postnuptial.

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Sure.

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And, um, I have called upon you in

cases and it's, it is a case where

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I have a, a couple who has heart

issues and they wanna stay together.

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And so I sent them your way.

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Sometimes I can send really messy things.

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Melissa

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life is messy.

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Yes.

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It's, it's for all of us.

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Um, and so let's talk

about that a little bit.

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So they're married and maybe.

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I I'm gonna let you talk about

what a postnuptial is and then I

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can throw in like little stories

along the way, if that's helpful.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really helpful.

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So, um, I'm gonna talk a little

bit about why I think re attorneys

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are required in a postnup.

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Um, and I think the biggest difference

is before you get married, you don't

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have spousal rights because you're

not married, and so you're sort of.

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Preconceiving and what's gonna

happen, but, but you have

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the option to not be married.

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So if we're doing a prenuptial

agreement and we're starting to bring

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up some stuff and it's not like, Ooh,

I didn't know you felt that way, and

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maybe we shouldn't get married, you

still have the option to opt out.

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Mm-hmm.

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Because you're not married.

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Speaker: Right.

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Speaker 2: In a post optional agreement,

those spousal rights are in place because

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we have signed and we are married, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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And so understanding your rights

is super, super important.

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And that's why I believe both, that both,

both people, both partners need attorneys,

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both spouses need attorneys so that there

is a very clear understanding because.

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Basically, to answer your question,

a postnuptial agreement is really a

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legally binding contract that you enter

after you're married, and it typically

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talks about things like financial rights

and responsibilities that you have

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during the marriage and what happens

in the event of a divorce and or death.

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So it has two components to it.

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And usually we're looking at

provisions that are, what is the

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division of property look like?

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We can talk about spousal maintenance,

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Speaker 3: which

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Speaker 2: is alimony.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: We can talk about inheritances.

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Maybe there's a large inheritance

that's happened or maybe

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somebody started a business.

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And they hadn't, nobody thought

they were gonna do that.

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It kind of takes what's happening

in your life and allows you to have

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these conver conversations that I

think really is more about a tool for

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strengthening and working through the

things that maybe are hard right now.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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And

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Speaker 2: coming up with a solution for

it that everybody's comfortable with.

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Because the thing is, is it's a contract

and it has to be done by agreement.

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So both people have to agree.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: In order for

it to be legally binding.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: What's interesting

too is that we can't actually

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talk about the kids' stuff.

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So here's what I'll say.

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We can talk about the kids' stuff, but

we can't really determine child custody

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or child support the way we can with,

with alimony or spousal maintenance.

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I.

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And we can't do that in

a prenup or a postnup.

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Either way, kids are sort of off

the table in that realm because

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the, the rule is really more about

what's in the child's best interest.

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Yeah.

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Is that those things are happening,

so we're not gonna overlay kid stuff.

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That being said, one of the benefits

to a collaborative postnup tool

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agreement is that I can bring in

professionals like a Brian Burns,

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um, who are family specialists and

maybe we have conversations about.

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What's happening with the kids and what

would be a better sort of way forward, I'm

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not gonna put it into a legally binding

document, but we can have other kinds

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of support for things that are mm-hmm.

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Hard during the marriage.

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Yeah.

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Which I think is really,

um, a powerful tool.

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Speaker: Right.

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Speaker 2: Utilized already.

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Speaker: Okay.

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So are they always just about finances?

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Speaker 2: They don't have to

be from a legal standpoint, it's

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a lot about finances usually.

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Um, but that's one of the reasons I

think collaborative is so important

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in doing it this way is because we can

then talk about other things, right?

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: And we can create contracts.

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I think most of the prenups and

postnup that I do are focused on

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the financial side of things, um,

because that's the part that sort of.

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Legally we care about, you know?

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Mm-hmm.

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We care about real estate.

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We have lots of laws about real estate.

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We have lots of laws about assets.

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And so that's one of the, probably the

biggest parts of a postnuptial agreement

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is working through those questions.

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Speaker: Right.

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And I have some, um, clients who

are thinking they may want to

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stay together and maybe one person

has had an issue with dishonesty.

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Or lots of affairs or, and I think that

is actually the biggest issue, that the

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one party is concerned about the, the

trust and you know, but they want it.

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They wanna work it out and

they wanna stay together, but

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they want to have parameters.

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And I know, like in one situation

that I'm thinking about, I mean, I

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think one way you could do it is.

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If any finances go towards one of these

because there were, there was money

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involved in the, I don't even know how

to describe this without saying it.

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Like in the affair type.

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Okay.

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In

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Speaker 2: discretion.

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Speaker: Yes.

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So, so you could kind of make it about

finances, but it's not really about that.

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So how do you, how do you work with that?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's kind of a

balancing act, quite frankly, because

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one of the things that, um, can answer

the trust dishonesty question in a

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postnuptial agreement is that there

is a requirement of full disclosure,

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Speaker 3: right?

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So

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Speaker 2: if we're feeling like, I

don't really know what's going on.

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One of the bars that we have to jump

over, the hurdle is that we have to

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fully disclose the financial situation

for both spouses, and that's really,

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really important because if it's

not fully disclosed, then later on

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there could be a claim of fraud.

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I.

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Um, which would then could blow

up the contract basically, right?

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We're sharing statements, we're sharing

tax returns, we're sharing bank accounts.

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I mean, we're starting to put, bring

things into the light essentially,

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is what that agreement can do.

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Speaker: So then, so then how does the,

the one party who is kind of policing

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the money and wants to make sure that

it's not going to something that's.

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Not agreed upon.

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Um, how do they stay on top of that?

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Like, do they just have to keep watching

out for it or how, how does that work?

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And maybe this is for

a therapist, Melissa.

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I don't know.

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I'll say therapist in

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Speaker 2: charge as much as I do.

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And they're more qualified.

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I don't for sure.

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Yeah.

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You know, here's, here's a

thought about that though.

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This would be in a collaborative case

where we're putting a postnuptial

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agreement together, where I would

bring in a financial neutral.

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And what we're really doing is

we're creating ultimately a list of.

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The assets and which assets go to

which spouse or which assets are joint.

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And a financial planner

can help us do that.

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So we're really stamping a

point in time that says what our

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financial picture looks like.

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Speaker: So what this does for the

person who feels a little bit ill at

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ease is they've got this stamped in

time and you know that this party wants

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to stay, he wants to stay married.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, but now he feels

like he's got something.

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If it does go to divorce, and it might

be something for the other party to

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realize, okay, I don't wanna blow

this, I really don't wanna blow this.

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I don't know.

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Does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it does.

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Um, and, and, uh, quite frankly, I'm,

I'm a big proponent of therapy anyway.

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Like I know, I think it's

super, um, beneficial.

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So the um, the feeling side of money.

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Right.

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Um, can be handled with the

support of other professionals too.

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Speaker: Amen.

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Speaker 2: You know, um, the thing

that, what that's interesting about

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these kinds of agreements is that

they have to be fair and equitable.

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Speaker: That's what I

was gonna ask you about.

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So there's no way that

it could be lopsided.

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Well, if they agreed and were both

represented, could it be lopsided?

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Mm-hmm.

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Because I guess the, the

determination of what's fair and

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equitable is based on what, right.

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Right.

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So if, um, a couple says, I think this

is fair and equitable, I think it's fair.

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Here's an example.

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Let's say, um, there was a spouse

that, um, started a business.

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Mm-hmm.

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As the other spouse, I could say, I

think it's fair and equitable that

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if that business skyrockets, that

it's still just my spouse's business.

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That was their work.

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That's they blood, sweat, and tears.

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I'm okay with that.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: And also if it tanks,

I don't wanna have any part of it.

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Like I don't wanna be financially ruined

if this business doesn't take off.

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So that could be considered fair

and equitable by both sides.

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My business, I sink or swim

with it and it doesn't affect

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financially my spouse or maybe the

spouses feel totally differently.

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Maybe they're like, you know what?

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You're doing this venture and

I'm fully supportive of it and

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we're gonna sink or swim together.

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I think both could be fair and

equitable, but it's really dependent

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on the people making the agreement.

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The spouse.

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Right.

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Speaker: And I'm, I'm thinking of, and

there's a lot of people that I work

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with that own their own businesses.

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Mm-hmm.

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It wouldn't be a bad idea to have a

postnup, even if you have a super happy,

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happy marriage because that is tricky.

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I.

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Speaker 2: Like, how are

we gonna handle that?

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Speaker: Yes.

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Speaker 2: It's so,

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Speaker: so complicated.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is.

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And the other thing you could think about

too would be like, let's say we've decided

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that one of the spouses is gonna stay home

and leave the workforce and raise kids.

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I can't tell you how many couples

I meet and I would just be guilty

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of this too, when I was in my

twenties, like there was no way I

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was ever gonna leave the workforce.

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I would absolutely have

said hi, there's no way.

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And there was a period of time that I did.

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Speaker 3: Me too.

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Speaker 2: I stay home for a while.

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And, um, one could consider at that

point like, okay, well that affects my

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ability to earn income and what does

that look like for me if things don't

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go the way we think they're gonna go.

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And so I think that's another

time or another common reason

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that people kind of start talking

about postnuptial agreements.

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Speaker: Okay.

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Melissa, another light.

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Um, that just lit my brain on fire.

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And I love that you said that

because I always felt kind of sad.

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I.

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I, I did stay home with my

kids for a period of time,

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um, and was so happy to do it.

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And yeah, I don't have the

career that my husband has.

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I don't, because, you

know, you give a lot.

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And I remember going to a continuing

legal education course in family

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law and this well-known family law

attorney said if you are married.

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Do not ever stay home with your kids.

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'cause you will.

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She basically said, you will get screwed.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that just makes

me, you're like, yeah, I know.

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Speaker: And I, and I was

like, wow, that's really happy,

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but okay, here's your answer.

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Do a post-up.

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Mm-hmm.

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Do a post-up because maybe it's fair and

equitable that you get a little bit more.

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Right, because you've put in I

Am the wind beneath his wings.

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Speaker 2: And, and I feel you.

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And, and like that, you know, your

life is possible because of my life.

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Yes.

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Like we all lean on each other and I

think it's hard when you, um, haven't

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had children yet to know how you

might feel about it in the moment

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Speaker: and you might Oh, but yes.

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Right.

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And Melissa say, I'm gonna say same thing.

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Never thought.

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I would ever be a stay at home mom.

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Never even crossed my mind.

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It was just like, and then I remember

my best friend had a baby probably,

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uh, like five months before I did.

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She's like, Ooh.

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Watch out, you're not gonna

wanna go back to work.

325

: 00:15:31

I'm like, what?

326

: 00:15:32

Speaker 2: No.

327

: 00:15:32

Speaker: What are you talking about?

328

: 00:15:34

You know?

329

: 00:15:34

And then it was like,

330

: 00:15:36

Speaker 2: I think you

don't wanna go back.

331

: 00:15:38

Like you think, oh, I'm gonna totally

wanna be home and do all of this.

332

: 00:15:42

And then you're like, wow, this is a very

333

: 00:15:45

Speaker: Right.

334

: 00:15:46

Speaker 2: I need to get out the house.

335

: 00:15:47

Yes.

336

: 00:15:48

Speaker: Oh, there are those moments too.

337

: 00:15:51

We all have a little bit of both.

338

: 00:15:52

And that's the thing too, to just

know that I have a daughter who.

339

: 00:15:56

Just is finishing up her residency.

340

: 00:15:58

She's a medical doctor and she's

like, has no desire to stay

341

: 00:16:03

home and she's a beautiful mama.

342

: 00:16:06

And so I'm not saying that either,

so I don't want, I am like all about

343

: 00:16:10

that is so personal and so, yeah.

344

: 00:16:12

Everybody's own path.

345

: 00:16:14

Speaker 2: Yep.

346

: 00:16:14

And you don't know what you don't know.

347

: 00:16:15

Right?

348

: 00:16:16

Right.

349

: 00:16:16

And you also don't know what your

financial situation would be, what your

350

: 00:16:20

spouse is gonna be doing, what kind of

flexibility those jobs have, you know?

351

: 00:16:24

So there's a lot that I think

goes into those decisions.

352

: 00:16:26

But life is long and life happens too.

353

: 00:16:30

And so there's adjustments and

things we can make along the

354

: 00:16:32

way to have those conversations.

355

: 00:16:34

Because if you do have a spouse

leaving the workforce, it might be

356

: 00:16:37

a really good time to do a check-in.

357

: 00:16:38

Where are we financially?

358

: 00:16:41

What do we want this to look like?

359

: 00:16:42

Speaker: Right,

360

: 00:16:43

Speaker 2: right.

361

: 00:16:43

So I, that's why I call it marital

estate planning because I don't

362

: 00:16:46

feel like it's a one and done.

363

: 00:16:48

Speaker: Okay.

364

: 00:16:49

And I love what you're saying too,

because as I'm thinking about my daughter,

365

: 00:16:54

um, this can go the other way too.

366

: 00:16:56

So her husband is an engineer and

he had to take on all the kids

367

: 00:17:03

stuff really through her residency.

368

: 00:17:05

I mean, it was, it was a lot.

369

: 00:17:08

And, um.

370

: 00:17:09

Um, probably didn't get to do what maybe

he would have done with his career.

371

: 00:17:15

So it's just a little bit of a flip side.

372

: 00:17:18

Mm-hmm.

373

: 00:17:18

I just see this as this is a breath

of fresh air to me, and I feel

374

: 00:17:22

like stay at home moms do this.

375

: 00:17:26

Stay at home Dads do this.

376

: 00:17:30

Do a postnup, why

wouldn't you feel better?

377

: 00:17:33

You know?

378

: 00:17:34

Yeah.

379

: 00:17:34

Speaker 2: It's not like the law doesn't

protect people who choose to stay home.

380

: 00:17:37

It it, it does in some respects.

381

: 00:17:38

I

382

: 00:17:39

Speaker: agree with you, Melissa, too,

and I have always said, I want this to be

383

: 00:17:42

less scary for you because if you don't

have this set up, you are gonna be okay.

384

: 00:17:48

Yeah, yeah,

385

: 00:17:49

Speaker 2: you are.

386

: 00:17:49

There are things that are set

up and, and I think what's nice

387

: 00:17:52

about it is that you then get to

know what those things are, right?

388

: 00:17:57

Yes.

389

: 00:17:57

And then you can decide if that's

what you want or don't want and what

390

: 00:18:00

works for you and what's fair and

equitable for you in your situation.

391

: 00:18:04

And agree.

392

: 00:18:05

Again, this is all by agreement, so both.

393

: 00:18:07

Both sides, both spouses have to agree

to it in order for it to be enforceable.

394

: 00:18:11

I mean, otherwise you're

not gonna sign it.

395

: 00:18:13

Right.

396

: 00:18:13

Speaker: Right.

397

: 00:18:14

Speaker 2: Um, the other thing that's

interesting about these kinds of

398

: 00:18:17

agreements is that they really are,

there's, I'm gonna throw some legal

399

: 00:18:21

language in here, but there the

courts would look at whether it was

400

: 00:18:24

procedurally fair to have the agreement.

401

: 00:18:29

So that's kind of where two lawyers

coming in, I think is super helpful

402

: 00:18:31

because we understand the procedure.

403

: 00:18:33

Mm-hmm.

404

: 00:18:33

And then is

405

: 00:18:33

Speaker 3: it

406

: 00:18:33

Speaker 2: substantively.

407

: 00:18:35

Fair at the time when you signed it

and at the time that you enforce it.

408

: 00:18:41

Speaker: Okay,

409

: 00:18:42

Speaker 2: so, so there is definitely like

legal oversight from a court's perspective

410

: 00:18:47

if we have to go there where we're looking

at not only was this procedurally and

411

: 00:18:51

sub substantively fair when we signed it,

but also at the point of enforceability.

412

: 00:18:56

And so now we're talking about

the foreseeability of life, right?

413

: 00:19:00

Nobody has a crystal ball.

414

: 00:19:02

Speaker: Right.

415

: 00:19:02

Speaker 2: So, you know, has the change

when we're trying to enforce it, been so

416

: 00:19:07

dramatic that, that it's just completely

would like shock your mind mm-hmm.

417

: 00:19:12

That we would enforce it at that time.

418

: 00:19:14

Those, that's a pretty

big high bar to jump.

419

: 00:19:16

So we, we do get to have conversations

about, you know, what happens if

420

: 00:19:20

somebody gets disabled and can't work?

421

: 00:19:23

Mm-hmm.

422

: 00:19:23

What happens if.

423

: 00:19:23

Somebody leaves the workforce.

424

: 00:19:24

What happens if somebody owns a business?

425

: 00:19:26

What happens if somebody gets an

inheritance that's really large?

426

: 00:19:29

Mm-hmm.

427

: 00:19:29

How do you wanna handle that as a family?

428

: 00:19:32

And those are the kinds of

conversations you get to have when

429

: 00:19:34

you're doing agreements like this.

430

: 00:19:36

Speaker: Yeah, I love that.

431

: 00:19:37

I, okay, I love that you name those.

432

: 00:19:39

The inheritance I was thinking

of like the stay at home mom who

433

: 00:19:43

suddenly became a huge sensation

on Instagram and was making no.

434

: 00:19:48

And of dollars.

435

: 00:19:49

And then, you know, is it still fair?

436

: 00:19:52

Right.

437

: 00:19:52

That's the one that popped in my head.

438

: 00:19:54

Where's that a little more reasonable?

439

: 00:19:55

Make a little more sense.

440

: 00:19:58

Well, we've got influencers, right?

441

: 00:19:59

And if you, if you hit a

442

: 00:20:00

Speaker 2: pig, who knows, right?

443

: 00:20:02

Yeah.

444

: 00:20:02

I think there's, um, I feel like there's

a woman who's taking, who does pictures

445

: 00:20:06

of her baby and I can't remember,

it's like very artistic and stuff.

446

: 00:20:09

And I think she's doing

really well, hopefully,

447

: 00:20:11

Speaker 3: right.

448

: 00:20:12

Speaker 2: So that kind

of stuff can happen.

449

: 00:20:13

I mean, I think that's, you know, that's.

450

: 00:20:17

That's just the cool

stuff life offers you.

451

: 00:20:19

And then if that's happening, you

get to make a decision about it.

452

: 00:20:22

Right?

453

: 00:20:22

So, um, the other thing too that I wanna

say is that a prenuptial agreement is

454

: 00:20:29

like valid or presumed enforceable when

you sign it, like when you get married.

455

: 00:20:33

So you sign it in advance and then there's

provisions about that state's on that.

456

: 00:20:37

We won't get into the details on

that, but when you get married that

457

: 00:20:41

that agreement is now enforceable

with a quote, but it's not

458

: 00:20:44

Speaker: before you're married.

459

: 00:20:46

Speaker 2: Not before you.

460

: 00:20:47

Usually the marriage

is what is the impetus.

461

: 00:20:49

That's that now.

462

: 00:20:50

Now it exists.

463

: 00:20:51

Now it's sort of a valid mm-hmm.

464

: 00:20:52

And can be executed kind of a

document with a postnuptial agreement.

465

: 00:20:56

And this is Minnesota law

too, so you definitely wanna

466

: 00:20:58

check the the state you're in.

467

: 00:20:59

But a postnuptial agreement is

presumed to be unenforceable.

468

: 00:21:04

If a divorce is filed within

two years of its execution.

469

: 00:21:09

Okay, so

470

: 00:21:11

Speaker: unless, say that

one more time, I'm sorry.

471

: 00:21:13

Speaker 2: So we're gonna, when

we do a postnuptial agreement,

472

: 00:21:16

Uhhuh, we're gonna presume that

it's not enforceable for two years.

473

: 00:21:21

Speaker: Why?

474

: 00:21:22

Speaker 2: Well, I think the

reason for this is because we

475

: 00:21:25

don't wanna emphasize a quick fix.

476

: 00:21:29

For a failing marriage, it's not really

about let's just jump in and do a postnup.

477

: 00:21:34

It's more like, this is thoughtful,

we're gonna do it, and then we've got two

478

: 00:21:38

years before it's presumed enforceable.

479

: 00:21:41

That doesn't mean that somebody

who's trying to enforce it.

480

: 00:21:45

Earlier than two years, can't try to

enforce it and say this was fair for

481

: 00:21:50

all the reasons and, but we're gonna

have to have a judgment about that.

482

: 00:21:54

Right.

483

: 00:21:54

So the

484

: 00:21:54

Speaker: presumption is, that's so

interesting to me, Melissa, because

485

: 00:21:57

I feel like it's closer to when

you did it, and so it holds truth.

486

: 00:22:04

Closer to when you sign it because

you are in that financial situation.

487

: 00:22:09

Right.

488

: 00:22:09

Then three years from now, that

might change and that's when it's

489

: 00:22:13

enforceable, but it's not the day after.

490

: 00:22:15

I don't understand.

491

: 00:22:17

Speaker 2: Yeah.

492

: 00:22:17

That's, that's the law and I

really think it's about, um,

493

: 00:22:21

making sure that a postnuptial

agreement isn't a divorce document.

494

: 00:22:29

Right.

495

: 00:22:30

Okay.

496

: 00:22:31

Like we're not predetermining our

divorce and then doing this agreement

497

: 00:22:35

and then the next day getting divorced.

498

: 00:22:36

This is like meant to be a way

to say, this isn't a quick fix.

499

: 00:22:41

This is a marital estate plan.

500

: 00:22:44

Right.

501

: 00:22:45

The other thing you have to remember too

is that the pre, and this is why I talked

502

: 00:22:48

about prenuptial agreements first, before

you get married, your choice is to not

503

: 00:22:52

get married if you don't wanna do it.

504

: 00:22:54

Right, right, right.

505

: 00:22:55

In a postnuptial

agreement, you are married.

506

: 00:22:58

And so we wanna make sure that we're

addressing issues and, and these

507

: 00:23:03

agreements are meant to last a long

time, but there's this period of time,

508

: 00:23:06

and I think that's because your spousal

rights are in place and there might

509

: 00:23:09

be some giving up with some of those

spousal rights if you're choosing to

510

: 00:23:12

do that, where you got to a two year

period of time where if somebody did go

511

: 00:23:17

for and decide to file for divorce, that

the presumption is that the agreement

512

: 00:23:20

you made is not gonna be enforceable.

513

: 00:23:23

That's a big difference

between prenups and postnup.

514

: 00:23:26

Speaker: Okay.

515

: 00:23:27

Mm-hmm.

516

: 00:23:28

All right.

517

: 00:23:29

Yeah, I kinda, I mean, I

totally hear what you're saying.

518

: 00:23:33

I, I've, I've never really

wrapped my head around this

519

: 00:23:36

and, and I probably should have.

520

: 00:23:38

Um, but that's interesting.

521

: 00:23:40

That's just interesting to me that

it's not enforceable for two years.

522

: 00:23:44

Speaker 2: I think part of that

is because it's in the context of.

523

: 00:23:48

I just ongoing marriage.

524

: 00:23:50

Right, right.

525

: 00:23:51

And I'm just thinking, answering.

526

: 00:23:53

Yeah.

527

: 00:23:53

And the post-up is really about navigating

changes within an existing marriage.

528

: 00:23:58

And so, okay, so So maybe I'm to that.

529

: 00:24:01

Speaker: Yeah, I'm sorry.

530

: 00:24:02

I don't mean to overtalk you.

531

: 00:24:03

I just have so many questions.

532

: 00:24:04

So I'm thinking maybe I'm thinking

about using this maybe the wrong

533

: 00:24:09

way because I am thinking about

using it to save a marriage because

534

: 00:24:13

they are right at the brink of.

535

: 00:24:16

I kinda wanna get divorced

if this doesn't change.

536

: 00:24:19

Mm-hmm.

537

: 00:24:21

And so he is, you know, they're not

going, it's not going to do for them

538

: 00:24:26

what they need it to do because he is

not gonna wanna pay for a, for this to be

539

: 00:24:34

done, you know, I mean, it's legal fees.

540

: 00:24:37

Mm-hmm.

541

: 00:24:37

If.

542

: 00:24:38

She's not following through.

543

: 00:24:39

You know what I mean?

544

: 00:24:40

So maybe this isn't really

help me through this.

545

: 00:24:43

Is this really going to help them?

546

: 00:24:45

Because I don't know if

they can make it two years.

547

: 00:24:50

Speaker 2: Well, that's really, I

mean, so that's the thing, right?

548

: 00:24:53

I think.

549

: 00:24:54

Speaker: But they would rather try.

550

: 00:24:56

Speaker 2: So what is, what is

the definition of try, I guess?

551

: 00:24:59

Yeah.

552

: 00:24:59

Because if trying two years

doesn't seem like that much to me.

553

: 00:25:03

Like if we're really trying and we're

putting all of this together and

554

: 00:25:06

we're doing disclosures of information

and we're making a new agreement for

555

: 00:25:10

the future of our marriage with the

intent that we're staying together.

556

: 00:25:15

Then the two years

shouldn't really matter.

557

: 00:25:17

Speaker: Well, and I guess it does

558

: 00:25:19

Speaker 2: file for divorce in

those two years and it just doesn't.

559

: 00:25:22

Right.

560

: 00:25:22

It's just that it's not, or I guess

after the two years, if it's still

561

: 00:25:25

not working, then you, then you made

a plan for what that would look like.

562

: 00:25:29

Right.

563

: 00:25:29

But you have two years to sit on it.

564

: 00:25:31

And I think it's really, um.

565

: 00:25:34

Trying to handle, um, a contract,

a marriage that you're already in

566

: 00:25:38

that has legal, um, legal rights

and lemo legal ramifications for

567

: 00:25:43

the choices that you're making, that

nobody's making them under duress.

568

: 00:25:47

Nobody's making them with the feeling

of being forced into something.

569

: 00:25:51

Um, I think it gives.

570

: 00:25:53

Grace to the fact that you're already

married and that those decisions should

571

: 00:25:57

be handled with sensitivity and, um,

an understanding of this is like a

572

: 00:26:02

longer term solution and trying to be

helpful for building in resilience.

573

: 00:26:12

Speaker: Yep, I get it.

574

: 00:26:13

I get it.

575

: 00:26:13

And so I see it.

576

: 00:26:16

Um, it, it's not for someone who's

making one last stitch effort to stay

577

: 00:26:21

together, but it could be, it could be

a deep breath for even this person who

578

: 00:26:30

is trying to figure out what to do.

579

: 00:26:33

Maybe he gives it two years and maybe

then he knows I've done everything I can.

580

: 00:26:39

Yeah.

581

: 00:26:39

And, you know, and now, so

I, and I have two years.

582

: 00:26:44

Yeah.

583

: 00:26:45

And yeah, so, so now I kind of

get it, we've worked through

584

: 00:26:48

this a little in my head.

585

: 00:26:49

I kind of get it.

586

: 00:26:50

Here's the thing, here's

what I think about.

587

: 00:26:52

Speaker 2: So, um, I don't know if this

is gonna actually answer the question

588

: 00:26:57

directly, so it might be, we might be

circling around a little bit, but when

589

: 00:27:01

we are doing a postnuptial agreement.

590

: 00:27:04

I don't think of it if we're doing it in

a traditional way, and by traditional,

591

: 00:27:07

I mean maybe not a collaborative way.

592

: 00:27:11

I feel like they tend to be, this

is true for collaborative too, but

593

: 00:27:13

it, they tend to be started in times

when there's marital strain, right?

594

: 00:27:18

Or there's some major financial events.

595

: 00:27:20

And it can oftentimes feel, I think

like one spouse is sort of trying to

596

: 00:27:24

protect themselves from the other,

which can add to like, if you do a

597

: 00:27:28

traditional prenup, I think it can add

to defensiveness and mistrust and things

598

: 00:27:32

like that because it's sort of a, mm-hmm.

599

: 00:27:35

The negotiations can be pretty contentious

and that can increase marital stress.

600

: 00:27:38

I mean, it's, it can be born

out of this fear, I think.

601

: 00:27:42

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

602

: 00:27:43

Speaker 2: I think what

you're talking about, mm-hmm.

603

: 00:27:45

Versus a sort of shared

vision for the future.

604

: 00:27:50

Right.

605

: 00:27:50

So this collaborative overlay, I think,

pulls us a little bit out of that

606

: 00:27:54

traditional sort of like, ah, we're

trying to, you know, scrape and, and

607

: 00:27:58

handle this in a sort of increasingly

stressful situation with a way that.

608

: 00:28:05

Both attorneys and both spouses

because you have to have an

609

: 00:28:07

attorney in a postnup, whether it's

a collaborative attorney or not.

610

: 00:28:10

Right.

611

: 00:28:10

Right.

612

: 00:28:11

But the, the attorneys and the

couple then is committed to

613

: 00:28:16

resolving the financial problems.

614

: 00:28:19

Outside of the court.

615

: 00:28:20

Right?

616

: 00:28:20

'cause this is all by agreement, right?

617

: 00:28:21

If we're gonna use the court,

we're getting divorced.

618

: 00:28:23

So, well,

619

: 00:28:24

Speaker: and I was just thinking of

this, Melissa, we probably should kind of

620

: 00:28:27

explain to the listeners, you don't have

to do this with collaborative attorneys.

621

: 00:28:32

No.

622

: 00:28:33

So you could, but you just each

have to have an attorney and tell.

623

: 00:28:36

Explain, just for listeners who don't

know, what is the difference if you're

624

: 00:28:39

working with collaborative versus just.

625

: 00:28:42

Regular attorneys.

626

: 00:28:43

Speaker 2: Okay.

627

: 00:28:43

And I will say that lots of attorneys

will, will say that I'm a collaborative

628

: 00:28:47

attorney, like I work collaboratively with

629

: 00:28:49

Speaker 3: others.

630

: 00:28:49

Yeah.

631

: 00:28:49

Speaker 2: Right.

632

: 00:28:50

Um, I think in a traditional

attorney relationship, um.

633

: 00:28:56

The conversation is sort of like

telephone tag where the, uh,

634

: 00:28:59

client talks to their attorney.

635

: 00:29:01

That attorney talks to the other attorney.

636

: 00:29:03

That attorney talks to their client.

637

: 00:29:05

So you can kind of see how this becomes

like a negotiation and a, you know,

638

: 00:29:08

well, the attorneys are really sort

of there to negotiate for you, but

639

: 00:29:11

you're not really interacting with

each other, the collaborative process.

640

: 00:29:15

Really is about everybody

being at the table together.

641

: 00:29:18

And so the attorneys are given the ability

to be more open about the communication

642

: 00:29:23

and the sharing of information, and

it's really a problem solving approach

643

: 00:29:27

versus maybe like a negotiation.

644

: 00:29:29

It's still negotiation, but

the overlay is the goal.

645

: 00:29:34

The very first meeting we have

in a collaborative process is to

646

: 00:29:36

say, what is, what are your goals?

647

: 00:29:37

For the process, not what are

your goals of how I get this,

648

: 00:29:41

and he gets that and whatever.

649

: 00:29:42

But like, what are your

goals for this process?

650

: 00:29:44

And if the goal really is that

we're trying to work this out, then

651

: 00:29:48

having this collaborative overlay

that has a problem solving approach,

652

: 00:29:51

I think is really beneficial.

653

: 00:29:54

And so that's why we can bring in coaches

and neutrals who talk about finances

654

: 00:29:59

and the, that sort of landscape and the

emotional dynamics of what are happening.

655

: 00:30:03

That's not gonna happen in a traditional,

most traditional attorneys are gonna

656

: 00:30:06

be like, go to somebody else for that.

657

: 00:30:08

Speaker: Right.

658

: 00:30:09

Okay.

659

: 00:30:09

So collaborative, they each

just talk to their attorney,

660

: 00:30:13

or do you all meet together In

collaborative, we can be all together.

661

: 00:30:17

So you all like Consi

do a Zoom call together?

662

: 00:30:19

Mm-hmm.

663

: 00:30:20

Okay.

664

: 00:30:20

That's what I was wondering.

665

: 00:30:21

Isn't that

666

: 00:30:21

Speaker 2: crazy?

667

: 00:30:23

Speaker: No, but I like that because

that, I like it when people can

668

: 00:30:26

just talk yes to each other instead

of like through someone else.

669

: 00:30:30

So that sounds like a

great open way to do it.

670

: 00:30:33

Speaker 2: Well, and I think too,

the, so the attorneys who do this

671

: 00:30:36

work are trained in the process and

um, I know that when I'm working with

672

: 00:30:43

the attorneys who do that, we still.

673

: 00:30:45

Advocate.

674

: 00:30:47

Right.

675

: 00:30:47

All of that.

676

: 00:30:47

Right.

677

: 00:30:47

Right.

678

: 00:30:48

But I also know that I'm not

gonna get an email that's gonna

679

: 00:30:52

fire up my client purposefully.

680

: 00:30:55

Right, right.

681

: 00:30:56

That can be a negotiation tactic.

682

: 00:30:58

Right.

683

: 00:30:58

So I really feel like it.

684

: 00:31:00

I.

685

: 00:31:00

The, it shifts the conversation from

like my assets and your assets to

686

: 00:31:04

like, what is our financial future.

687

: 00:31:06

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

688

: 00:31:07

Speaker 2: That's a different

way of thinking about it, right?

689

: 00:31:09

Yep.

690

: 00:31:09

Um, it really promotes this sort

of financial transparency and we're

691

: 00:31:14

trying to do it in a safe, non

adversarial environment, right?

692

: 00:31:17

Traditional approach.

693

: 00:31:18

It's more of an adversarial environment.

694

: 00:31:21

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

695

: 00:31:21

Speaker 2: Does that make sense?

696

: 00:31:22

Speaker: It totally makes

sense, and I'm thinking about.

697

: 00:31:26

It's not, um, always going to be

a mistake for someone who's trying

698

: 00:31:30

to take one last ditch effort.

699

: 00:31:31

It's just that they need to be aware

that this is a two year process.

700

: 00:31:37

Speaker 2: Once it's signed,

there's a two year process.

701

: 00:31:39

Yeah.

702

: 00:31:40

Period, if you will.

703

: 00:31:41

Right,

704

: 00:31:42

Speaker: right.

705

: 00:31:42

So I can see, I can see so many

advantages to having this and like.

706

: 00:31:48

If you start a business, if you decide

to stay at home, you know who, if

707

: 00:31:54

you lose your job, whatever it is,

what a great way to do it together

708

: 00:32:01

when your head's in the right place.

709

: 00:32:03

Speaker 2: Yeah, and I, you know,

I think one of the things that when

710

: 00:32:08

you're already married you there is this

sort of owing each other a fiduciary.

711

: 00:32:14

Responsibility or a duty to each other

and sort of having a higher standard

712

: 00:32:18

of care because you're already married.

713

: 00:32:20

Mm-hmm.

714

: 00:32:20

You've made the decision.

715

: 00:32:21

You are together, and we wanna be able

to respect that and reinforce it if

716

: 00:32:27

we can, through added transparency

and added conversations about fairness

717

: 00:32:32

and really navigating the changes

that have happened in a marriage

718

: 00:32:37

is really how I think about it.

719

: 00:32:39

Speaker: Yeah.

720

: 00:32:39

Speaker 2: And that we're really trying to

not plan for the failure of the marriage.

721

: 00:32:42

Speaker: Right.

722

: 00:32:43

Speaker 2: So you talk about last

ditch effort, that rings a little

723

: 00:32:46

bit of like, oh, we're kind of

724

: 00:32:47

Speaker: right.

725

: 00:32:48

Speaker 2: But I really think it's

more about planning to be resilient.

726

: 00:32:51

Yeah.

727

: 00:32:52

So all the things that life

kind of throws your away

728

: 00:32:54

Speaker: planning to be resilient.

729

: 00:32:56

I love that quote.

730

: 00:32:57

And with that my dear, we have

gone way over time and this is

731

: 00:33:01

going to be a two part series.

732

: 00:33:04

We weren't sure.

733

: 00:33:04

We just started chatting.

734

: 00:33:06

But Melissa, I so appreciate you taking

the extra time and I think these tools.

735

: 00:33:11

Can help marriages and I love that,

and they can help the divorce go

736

: 00:33:16

smoother, which we know how you end.

737

: 00:33:18

One thing is how you begin another, so

you might as well end it smoothly and

738

: 00:33:23

you know to the best of your ability.

739

: 00:33:25

So listeners, if you're looking for

a collaborative attorney for estate

740

: 00:33:30

planning or pre and postnuptial.

741

: 00:33:33

Melissa is located in Woodbury, but

you know, we can reach as far now.

742

: 00:33:39

Right.

743

: 00:33:39

Minnesota, how can they, I'll have it in

the show notes, but how can they find you?

744

: 00:33:43

Um, best

745

: 00:33:44

Speaker 2: to go on my website,

which is my last name, which

746

: 00:33:46

you can see below me now.

747

: 00:33:48

Yep.

748

: 00:33:48

Mi savage law.com.

749

: 00:33:50

And there's a little form there that

you can fill out and I can do, um, if

750

: 00:33:53

you say that you've listened to this

podcast, I can do a quick consultation

751

: 00:33:57

complimentary just to do a check-in

752

: 00:33:59

Speaker: for sure.

753

: 00:33:59

Awesome.

754

: 00:34:00

Awesome.

755

: 00:34:00

Well, thank you so much.

756

: 00:34:01

Thanks for being here.

757

: 00:34:02

And I probably am gonna have you

back to pick your brain again.

758

: 00:34:05

Sounds good.

759

: 00:34:05

Happy to do it.

760

: 00:34:06

Thanks so much.

761

: 00:34:07

Take good care.

762

: 00:34:08

Bye.